Seedfork said:I have seen a couple of posts that say the insects are successful when the gardener is not, why is that. Do they deposit the pollen in a different manner, do they have something that makes the pollen stick better? Could it be a mix of several pollens and therefore a better chance on one taking? Has anyone ever mixed three or four pollens and tried that? You would not know which one took, but you might set a pod like a bee.

@seedfork
The grower needs to check that the insects did not simply set a pod but that the pod actually matured, had what appeared to be mature seeds in it and that the seeds actually sprouted. I grow a substantial number of diploid cultivars in large clumps or rows. Some of them set substantial numbers of naturally pollinated pods. However, very few of those natural pollinations actually produce any seeds. Most of the pods abort at some time. Some of the natural pollinations that set pods are cross-ploidy pollinations. They sometimes may remain on the scape until apparent maturity but may not have any seeds that sprout. Other times the natural pollinations may be self-pollinations. On self-incompatible plants those may set pods that may sometimes remain for a long time but again may not have any viable seeds.

Or there other possibilities. The insects may be pollinating the plants before the hybridizer. If those are self-pollinations of a self-incompatible plant then the pods will abort and it will appear as if the hybridizer's cross was at fault. One hybridizer found that none of their crosses on a particular daylily ever took. That is, until they realized they were being beaten to the flowers by night-flying moths. The hybridizer produced successful hand-pollinations by pollinating the flowers in the middle of the night.

Setting pods is not enough. Producing seedlings from seeds from the pods is necessary to indicate that the cross was a success.

I mix pollens when I've had no luck setting a pod so far or if it is an extremely hot day, and I think nothing will set but I'd like to try anyway. Some cultivars had more potent pollen than others so when I'm down to the last few buds, I put whatever pollen I have in my hand that day on it...and that will sometimes be two or three different pollens. Difficult pollens include KING CRAB and easy to set pollens include MISS MAYHEM in my garden. I usually regret doing that later, because I'd rather know the pollen parent of all my seeds.

@admmad
So with the moth, was it found that night time pollination was the key, or that the moth's pollinations were just blocking the attempts by the hybridizer? In other words, if the moth had not pollinated the plants at night would the pollinations of the hybridizer have worked if done during the day?
I have never ventured out into the daylily beds at night (snakes for one reason) and just never had the urge to try pollinating a plant at night. I have no idea which plants might be opened or receptive to night time pollination. I should check and see which ones are listed as being nocturnal?

Larry,

Instead of buying night googles and a bee costume, I suggest getting a full night's sleep and letting that idea go.



I know you're not crazy because I am and you are never at the meetings....lol.

Steve

I think that is an excellent idea.
They make me sit on the back row so you ever see me at the meetings.

Though the grasshoppers ruined the pod, I set one on 'Lillian's Vapor Trail' by applying the pollen in late dusk the day before the bloom was an open bloom. The buds on it begin to open the day prior. I haven't attempted it subsequently, but have had zero success on trying the open blooms.

I think there may be others that do this. I have a couple of seedlings from 'LVT' pollen that also start opening the evening before bloom and 'Flat Face', a tet, also does it. If you were interested in getting a pod on one that does that, you might try it. It could have just been a one-off, but still might be worth the effort. Though the pod was ruined, it appeared to have formed reasonably good seeds at the point it died. Whether they were viable seeds isn't known, but from the appearance at the time I suspect they would have been fine. The trick is probably getting the pod on it.

I find Baby Blues needs pollinating the night before, too. Sticks its tongue out ready!🤣

that is how I have set pods on Baby Blues.

Seedfork said:
So with the moth, was it found that night time pollination was the key, or that the moth's pollinations were just blocking the attempts by the hybridizer? In other words, if the moth had not pollinated the plants at night would the pollinations of the hybridizer have worked if done during the day?

@seedfork
The hybridizer did not determine; I expect that it was a bit of both.

I have never ventured out into the daylily beds at night (snakes for one reason) and just never had the urge to try pollinating a plant at night. I have no idea which plants might be opened or receptive to night time pollination. I should check and see which ones are listed as being nocturnal?

You do not need to wait until night actually falls. If you identify a bud as being about to open (the next day) you can gently force it open and pollinate it. Then gently close it back up.

There is absolutely no requirement to pollinate flowers when they are actually receptive. They can be pollinated before that time and when they become receptive the pollen will germinate. There would be a limit to how many days before one could pollinate the flower but that would be affected by relative humidity, temperatures, shading, wind, etc. Professional plant breeders will open the bud remove the anthers or stamens, pollinate the flower and then close the bud back up and possibly do something to gently keep the bud from re-opening early (protect it somewhat from the weather - usually that means "bag" it).

If it were not for the normal heat here, it sounds like the best time to pollinate then would be late in the afternoon the day before the bloom opens on most plants? That way the pollen would be available whenever the plant became receptive. Then maybe for insurance maybe redo during the day? I wish I had tried that earlier in the year, this has been the best summer in years with a lot of days not getting into the 90's even late in the day and rain spaced out without drought conditions. So this year I think here, will have been one of the best chances I will ever have had to plant, grow and hybridize daylilies.

@seedfork

If it were not for the normal heat here, it sounds like the best time to pollinate then would be late in the afternoon the day before the bloom opens on most plants? That way the pollen would be available whenever the plant became receptive. Then maybe for insurance maybe redo during the day?

I often do exactly that, remembering, of course, to use the same pollen the next morning.

Perhaps, because of your normal heat a better time would be early evening, before darkness falls, but hopefully after temperatures fall a little to below 90, if there is such a time?

Dan Hansen gathers pollen the day before and puts it on his flowers super early in the morning before the plant is reciptive. I've done it this way also but have just as much luck setting pods using his method as I do using same day pollen.

TreeClimber said:I think that "Conspiracy Theory" has the best plant habits of anything I've ever seen. It's pollen works easily, but as Judy openly says, she has never set a pod on it. If you are lucky enough to get your hands on this amazing plant, DON'T GIVE UP. I have at least 5 pods on it, 3 of which I am pretty confident will hang in there until mature. (fingers crossed). All open blooms on it today got pollen from "Party Pants" .... the only thing I had blooming that was it's distant cousin.

I separated my original two fans of Conspiracy Theory, and planted them around 10" apart in the spring of 2016. They quickly developed into a nice display in their second season, and this year it's a large clump. First and second season pollination attempts left nothing but fluttering tags, with maybe one or two 'teaser' pods, so I didn't try at all this year. Naturally, since I gave up, I have a pretty large 'bee pod' sitting on it right now. I should have persisted. I used the pollen mostly on Notify Ground Crew this season. I think for best pod fertility I may have to slip a fan or two out of the clump and put them in a container. I agree about the plant habit—its scapes are well-branched and "just right" in thickness, the foliage is rich green and flawless. The color is one of the cleanest of the yellows I grow, and doesn't fade to gold or butter in the afternoon. A fantastic flower and plant, I'm really glad I pulled the trigger on this one.

Some plants seem to hold off on pod-setting until they're well-established, some of them just require an extra-powerful pollen. I've had a small clump of Oscie Whatley's Kuan Yin planted near a tree where it gets bright, dappled shade until about 3 pm. It's been there for about three years, and appeared pod-sterile. It's not exactly modern in form, but the color is bright and clean, plus it has a nice green throat. Quite often the pistil would be slightly deformed, but even when it appeared normal, no luck. This year, I started it off early with pollen from Benz's Red Velvet Supreme, and have about 5 big fat pods. Nothing else seemed to work, and I noticed throughout the garden that RVS was setting everywhere I tried—I even have a few RVS pods sitting on Sarajevo, which is always a difficult set. Besides being one of John's best reds with great color and substance and strong scapes on a large, vigorous plant, it seems to have one of those magical power-pollens. I grow my main plant in a 5-gallon nursery pot, but I also put an extra plant in a 2-gallon grow bag. That little thing grew into a large, beefy fan and has three big sturdy scapes loaded with pods. It's still blooming.

This discussion is so helpful! Thanks everyone for sharing techniques on difficult pod setters. I have quite a number of seedlings that seem to be pod infertile. I definitely look forward next year to try to pollinate the evening before and perhaps again the following morning to see if that will increase the chance for the cross to take.

Daniel, your Yoga Man is handsome! What an apt name too!

@kousa I find that quite a few of my seedlings aren't fertile the first two year they bloom. I do think they can become fertile later on. Of course some are super fertile right from the start. But I wouldn't give up on the seedlings until year 3 or 4.

That is interesting, Elena, and something to keep in mind, for sure!

@bxncbx,
I had not heard that or even thought of it, I wonder how often that occurs with seedlings?

I mentioned it because this year I had 3 seedlings in a pot and all bloomed. They all set pods but two aborted them. I suspect it was because when I would go out in the morning the pot would be full to the brim with water from overnight thunderstorms. The one that still has pods bloomed much earlier so the pods were much further along. I think the stress of almost drowning made all the pods on the other two abort since they both started blooming the same day and bloomed either mid-late or late. I'm pretty sure that if the weather improves next year they will be pod fertile.

I think some of my seedlings struggle to bloom that first year and are probably not in the best condition. The added stress of forming pods may just be too much for them. I haven't checked to see if seedlings that bloom at two years old abort pods more than ones that wait an extra year to bloom. Even if my seedlings set pods the first year or two they usually only set one or two pods. Later on they will set more pods.

Maybe as important as mentioning pod-difficult cultivars is to mention "magic" pollen culitars that can miraculously break through the cycle of podlessness.

Every year I will find a pollen that sets even the most difficult plants. Unfortunately, I don't notice it until my season is nearly gone, and then usually don't remember it the following year...lol. Not an ideal plan!

Since we are on this season, I will tell you that both LAVENDER BLUE PLANET and CLASH OF ABSOLUTES, both from Curt, set pods on just about everything they touched. I used 50 wires of LBP and set over 40 pods. TETRFKXVICKI2 is a very difficult pod setter, and LBP left three huge pods on it!

I have a future intro from NANA NANCE X VICTORIA JOSEPHINE that has great pollen, but in three years....not a single pod...not even close. Noticed this morning that it had one from CLASH.

Maybe by mentioning it here, I won't forget to use them early and often next season.

Steve

LAVENDER BLUE PLANET....the deer ate every last bud this summer.... WAHHHHHHH...life is so unfair...I NEED ice cream!