Ok, don't get your hackles up, chuckl- there ARE a few still at DG as well as here, they stay lo key, but I bump into them once in awhile, DG is changing again, I hear all but forums are free, but there is nothing I use there, just haven't left for sake of friends who like the empty halls, chuckl. I enjoy these threads, I enjoy everyone here. My new Iphone gives me half a dozen gardening sites, but NONE of them is this one. Haven't seen anything to lure me away, I just have to watch thread dates, and read around, chuckl.