Elaine, I will head over to the clematis thread for specific answers. I've also heard of crepe murder but think it may be a cultural norm in Louisville, as all the crepe myrtle here seem to be bushes and I, being a transplanted Texan, long for my crepe myrtle trees! Maybe I can set an example! Greene, I'm never above any type of Zen activity. Not nearly enough of those to go around, especially the ones handed down through the generations! Thanks to both of you!