Thinking on the names issues - synonyms, cultivar names, trade names, etc in the Plant Database forum

Jul 3, 2012 6:53 PM CST

Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather

Here comes another long-winded blather.

There are two different ways to look at conflicts between "Accepted" and "Synonym" in databases.

1. Taxonomic: As Mr. Pfeiffer pointed out, there may be controversy surrounding a proposed nomenclature change that allows for more than one accepted name for some period of time. I'd assume that the Plant Admin would decide whether to be an early adopter or wait for consensus.

2. Online Publication: How recently the dataset was updated. This is often more important in determining whether a plant is shown as accepted or a synonym, especially when changes are made to genera. This issue may have nothing to do with taxonomic controversy, simply lack of resources to regularly update online.

-The Plant List is Version 1 which went online in December 2010. According to the website "Any comments concerning the data will be fed back to the owner of the original data record(s) concerned. Corrections will not appear in Version 1 of The Plant List, rather such corrections where accepted will be made in the original data sources and hence be incorporated into future versions of The Plant List." That makes revision a rather cumbersome process and results in out of date info now.

-ITIS, concentrating on North American taxa, updates when info is supplied and verified.

-The USDA Plants Database lags behind ITIS.

-TROPICOS (Missouri Botanical Garden) seems to have a commitment phobia. Good on dates though.

-The specialty society and plant type databases, like ILDIS (International Legume), may have the most complete datasets, but some don't list a verification date.

I'm assuming the most recent verified publication date should be the one "accepted" by the ATP database, with citation and DATE. An example:
Oenothera lindheimeri, Accepted, ITIS (2011), with a link to the site if possible (ITIS has instructions for automatically linking to the required plant as well as extracting particular pieces of data). A link to the original publication on the parent plant page(s) would really be nice if available: http://si-pddr.si.edu/dspace/b...

For me, the reference citation and date are critical (obviously not for every plant, but certainly for those with recent revisions). Otherwise, users will find Gaura popping up as Oenothera and assume ignorance by ATP as The Plant List, USDA Plant Database, RHS, NPIN (Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center), and a number of non-North American databases ALL list Gaura lindheimeri as "Accepted".

Just wanted to raise this issue before it's lost as I see no fields for reference or date in the revised scheme.

Monica

| @krancmm | Post #281463 (1)

Jul 4, 2012 9:20 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)

krancmm said:For me, the reference citation and date are critical (obviously not for every plant, but certainly for those with recent revisions).

The system already has backend support for this, I just haven't written the front-end system that lets the information get inputted.

At the moment, when you add a latin name to a plant, you get two fields:

1) Text field to enter the full latin name.

2) Select pulldown that lets you choose either "Synonym" or "Accepted".

My next step is to add 3 more fields:

3) Source (ITIS, USDA, etc).

4) Date of source (text field)

5) Link to specific entry at the source (text field)

Now, as for #3, do we want that to be a text field where you can type whatever the contributor wants to type in?

| @dave | Post #281733 (2)

Jul 4, 2012 10:27 AM CST

Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather

Cool.

#2 above. What about plants that don't appear in any valid databases but are used to sell plants? Neither Accepted nor Synonym. I'm thinking back to that dang Alocasia 'Poly' where Alocasia amazonica is often used to sell the plant but doesn't exist. I ran across one reference that mentioned the use of Horticulture for plants sold without any scientific basis. Now I've got it listed both in synonyms and trade names African Mask (Alocasia 'Polly') but it should probably be in the Latin List with some designation.

Also #2 above. For consistency, will admin add [Invalid], [Illegimate] etc. after the synonym name or leave them off completely as being unnecessary to the database?

More #2 above. Is it possible to capitalize Accepted and Synonym rather than all lower case? Just one of the 1000 things a day that irriate me.

#3. A drop down seems to make the most sense. ITIS requests that their full name be used in citations in the format Integrated Taxonomic Information System (ITIS); suspect all the others would as well. If the full names were in a drop down (with type-ahead of course

) that would sure save typing as well as providing consistency. You'd need a list from all the moderators and admin to make it as complete as possible. In addition to the obvious large scale databases only concerned with Latin binomials, there are also the approved International Cultivar Registration Authorities http://www.ishs.org/sci/icrali... that would have genus/species info as well as cultivar acceptance.

#5. Text field that becomes an automatic hyperlink?

Thanks for answering my concern.

Monica

| @krancmm | Post #281763 (3)

Jul 4, 2012 11:29 AM CST

Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)

I noticed that we no longer have separate Genus and species boxes.
I take it that means we would type in the Latin name box: Sempervivum and then the species in the same box?

Sempervivum for Sale
Sempervivum ~ Sedum ~ Containers

| @valleylynn | Post #281805 (4)

Jul 4, 2012 11:37 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)

That's right, Lynn. Just enter the full name (Genus and species) and the system will split them apart.

When adding a new plant, however, at the moment you still have to give them separately.

Monica: I'll reply later.

| @dave | Post #281814 (5)

Jul 4, 2012 11:42 AM CST

Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)

Got it.

Sempervivum for Sale
Sempervivum ~ Sedum ~ Containers

| @valleylynn | Post #281821 (6)

Jul 4, 2012 12:54 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)

krancmm said:What about plants that don't appear in any valid databases but are used to sell plants? Neither Accepted nor Synonym.

I think for that we will need a third option: "Invalid".

More #2 above. Is it possible to capitalize Accepted and Synonym rather than all lower case?

That's done.

If the full names were in a drop down (with type-ahead of course ) that would sure save typing as well as providing consistency.

A pulldown wouldn't support type-ahead since it would simply be a "choose one" pull down select field. We would have to pre-populate the list with all the options we wanted.

The alternative is a text field where you can type what you wish.

#5. Text field that becomes an automatic hyperlink?

Yes, easily done.

| @dave | Post #281885 (7)

Jul 4, 2012 1:48 PM CST

Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather

"Invalid" is already used in scientific notation and has a specific meaning. It goes immediately after the binomial, Alocasia × amazonica Reark [Invalid] and isn't part of the status field.
Need a different status term: "Unfounded", "False" (both meaning not based on fact); or leave completely blank?

Perhaps I'm using "type-ahead" differently. In my database, for a field that is pre-populated with a value list in which only one selection is allowed, I can enter a "p" that jumps to value list items beginning with the letter "p" rather than having to scroll through the whole list starting with "a". Is that what you're saying can't be done? And, yes, I did suggest pre-populating the reference field in my previous post.

The alternative of everyone entering whatever they wish makes my teeth ache. But then I'm from the old school of database design that emphasizes consistency of values that occur across the db.

Nice on the automatic hyperlink.

Monica

| @krancmm | Post #281913 (8)

Jul 4, 2012 2:06 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)

Let's use Unknown. We can change the word to something else later if a better idea comes along.

Gotcha on the type-ahead. Any pulldown will automatically support skipping ahead by pressing the first letter. That won't be a problem.

We just need to know what fields we want allowable in that pulldown. Do you have a list? I imagine it would be a short list to start off with, and it'll grow as more get requested to be added.

| @dave | Post #281919 (9)

Jul 4, 2012 2:14 PM CST

Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)

Genus
species
For a start?

Sempervivum for Sale
Sempervivum ~ Sedum ~ Containers

| @valleylynn | Post #281924 (10)

Jul 4, 2012 3:12 PM CST

Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather

Lynn, I think Dave was referring to "values" rather than "fields" in his last post. It was concerning what references we'd use after the Latin name (ITIS, The Plant List, etc)

Dave, "Unknown" fine with me, if ok with everyone else involved.

Good-o on "jump-ahead" for the pull-down.

Can get the basic list fairly quickly...tomorrow at latest. If you have time

you might see if you can drag in the list of International Cultivar Registration Authorities at http://www.ishs.org/sci/icrali... - that would cover a lot of the specialty areas (hostas, daylilies, iris, roses, etc). Each line has a link to info about the ICRA and in that info box is the URL for the site. Is that something a bot could extract? Otherwise I'll do it manually, she said sighing.

Monica

| @krancmm | Post #281951 (11)

Jul 4, 2012 3:27 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)

Yes, I can pull all those out.

So taking this one as an example:

http://www.ishs.org/sci/icrali...

The source name would be "African Violet Society of America, Inc." and the link would be http://www.avsa.org/

But we wouldn't include that link, would we? Didn't we want the link to be entered one a name-by-name basis, pointing directly to the page of the site that verifies the status of the specific plant name in question?

| @dave | Post #281955 (12)

Jul 4, 2012 3:49 PM CST

Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather

Super. That's it exactly.

You're right of course on the individual links. But could the society's main URL link go on the parent plant page? Someone entering info could get the link from the parent entry rather than googling or bookmarking it. Would be nice for cultivar checking especially.

The source names of the ICRAs, though, would be part of the reference drop-down list just as ITIS would be. Now looking over the list I downloaded, I don't think that all ICRA names would be needed--maybe I could narrow the list down to include only societies that are most relevant to the db, subject to everyone's approval.

Would that work?

Monica

| @krancmm | Post #281959 (13)

Jul 4, 2012 3:55 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)

krancmm said:could the society's main URL link go on the parent plant page? Someone entering info could get the link from the parent entry rather than googling or bookmarking it. Would be nice for cultivar checking especially.

That is certainly a good idea. The parent plant system is setup right now to allow any information the moderator wants to present, including links.

Now looking over the list I downloaded, I don't think that all ICRA names would be needed--maybe I could narrow the list down to include only societies that are most relevant to the db, subject to everyone's approval.

That sounds good to me.

| @dave | Post #281963 (14)

Last edited by dave Jul 5, 2012 9:43 AM

eclayne

Jul 4, 2012 5:53 PM CST

Plants Admin Emeritus

Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)

re: Unknown - How about something more definitive like misapplied (as per RHS).

FYI re:[invalid] I believe this is no longer "correct" nomenclature per ICBN. Being dropped? Ctrl+F "The Code establishes (Art. 12.1)" here: http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/frames...

edited

Evan

| @eclayne | Post #282006 (15)

Last edited by eclayne Jul 4, 2012 8:40 PM

RickCorey

Jul 6, 2012 3:05 PM CST

Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f

I knew there was some "name drift" even in binomial nomenclature, but I didn't realize it was so widespread.

I used to think that the problems of synonyms and ambiguous names were confined to common names.

I have to say that it delights me to find that even sober and dedicated professionals have trouble forcing plants into rigid and unchanging categories!

I'm sorry, Carl Linnaeus, (or should I say "Carolus Linnæus" or "Carolus a Linné"?), but I think it is :

Plants 1
Taxonomists 0

Just because it ISN'T complicated doesn't mean I can't MAKE it complicated!
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| @RickCorey | Post #282792 (16)

Last edited by RickCorey Jul 6, 2012 9:18 PM

CDsSister

Jul 6, 2012 3:45 PM CST

Name: Marilyn
Greenwood Village, CO (Zone 5b)
Garden today. Clean next week.

| @CDsSister | Post #282822 (17)

woofie

Jul 6, 2012 3:59 PM CST

Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)

Love it!

Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.

| @woofie | Post #282827 (18)

Jul 6, 2012 4:45 PM CST

Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)

Sempervivum for Sale
Sempervivum ~ Sedum ~ Containers

| @valleylynn | Post #282850 (19)