I would think that a vast majority of new daylily cultivars are created by non-ADS members.

It's a very big world out there, and it seems pretty likely that there are people doing excellent work in daylily advancement that have never heard of ADS and can't even read English. They just love gardening and their flowers.

Not to mention the huge flower companies in Netherlands and maybe South America probably aren't interested in joining or sharing information with anyone. And all the new cultivars that are created completely naturally. Bees are notoriously bad at leaving accurate notes on where the pollen comes from when they pass it on to the next flower.

SueVT said:
It seems to me that all hybridizers should be required to be members of the ADS, otherwise why even have the ADS?

I'd be surprised if it was ever the intent of the AHS to have that much control over what people do in their gardens. I think I read earlier in the thread that the intent was something about standardizing a way to register a daylily and prevent different daylilies from being known and sold under the same or similar names.

SueVT said:
It seems to me that all hybridizers should be required to be members of the ADS, otherwise why even have the ADS?

That's a good point, I'm not sure if membership is a requirement. It would be to the advantage of the society to place as few restrictions as possible on the registration process. As for why have the society, I'm sure there's a mission statement somewhere.

What I was really driving at is the definition of "hybridizer". There are a lot of people hybridizing daylilies who have never registered a daylily. I feel like they're hybridizers too, but there's no way to know that number, which was my original point.

There are nurserymen involved with fairly large concerns who have widely marketed unregistered, but "named", landscape plants. Some of those plants may have been patented. I don't know if there's any requirement that a patented plant be registered with a plant society. It would be nice if those hybridizers and the nurseries they work for cared about registration, but they often don't. It seems to be two different worlds.

I noticed that at least one hybridizer offers the ability for customers to name and register one of their seedlings.

There's more than one way to sell a daylily. They probably do the registration for the customer as part of the package, that way anyone can buy/name/dedicate a plant. In a way, it reminds me of a Star Registry, only the buyer actually receives a product.

I think there is a continuum of value among the 80000 cultivars in the database, from these otherwise-culled plants through the best work of serious hybridizers.

Absolutely. You can't know where you're going if you don't know where you've been. That's why I think it's important for a hybridizer to grow and observe the parents they breed with and even some of their ancestors.

I don't remember where I heard this, but a hybridizer once said that it takes 10 years to establish a breeding program. I don't doubt it a bit. A lot of that time is spent learning which plants are good parents, as well as how to effectively select and cull. Now that I think about it, ten years sounds like a Florida number, where a lot of 9-month seedlings bloom.

admmad said:

Please define what you specifically mean by inline breeding. Which recessive genes or what characteristics?

I meant crossing F1 with F1 sibs and/or F2 (offsprings) back to F1. I have heard that if you do such inline breeding, you will have more chance on seeing something unique because you may happen on a recessive trait being expressed due to a combination of recessive alleles.

kousa said:I meant crossing F1 with F1 sibs and/or F2 (offsprings) back to F1. I have heard that if you do such inline breeding, you will have more chance on seeing something unique because you may happen on a recessive trait being expressed due to a combination of recessive alleles.

Thank you.
Crossing F1 seedlings with F1 seedlings to produce the F2 generation is inbreeding. Unique characteristics rely on new mutations. Mutations are very rare but can occur in every generation. Approximately 95% of new mutations produce characteristics that are "recessive" and not visible when they first occur. The remaining 5% produce characteristics that are "dominant" when they first occur and immediately visible.

Yes, if you inbreed you have a better chance of finding new characteristics than if you do not inbreed.

However, there is a negative side to inbreeding, even just to produce the F2 generation. Both Stout and Arisumi indicated that inbreeding depression is severe in diploid daylilies. According to genetic theory inbreeding depression should be much less severe in tetraploid daylilies.

Inbreeding depression will appear in the seedlings in any of many different ways. Inbred daylilies may be slower growing, have fewer buds, have more problems opening their flowers, have less substance to their flowers, have less robust scapes, fewer scape branches, increase at slower rates, be less cold hardy, less disease resistant, less fertile, have smaller seeds and fewer seeds, have smaller flowers, and so on. The greater the inbreeding the stronger the inbreeding depression the worse the negative effect on the plant's characteristics. These negative effects are all in comparison to the average values of the characteristics in outbred daylilies.

Inbreeding depression would be measured by crossing a daylily to several unrelated plants, chosen at random and measuring the characteristics of the seedlings (outbred seedlings). Then those measurements would be averaged. The plant would then be self-pollinated and the same characteristics would be measured on the inbred seedlings. The difference between the average measurements of the inbred seedlings versus the average measurements of the outbred seedlings is an estimate of inbreeding depression. To get a better estimate of how inbreeding depression affects any specific character crosses would be made with the plant to produce different amounts of inbreeding and the seedlings from those crosses would have their characteristics measured. To get a more general estimate of how inbreeding affects various characteristics in daylilies in general the whole thing would be repeated with more than one original daylily.

Since these effects are based on average values of many seedlings it means that in any group of seedlings there will be ones with less than average values of the characteristics and ones with more than average values of the characteristics. That means if enough inbred seedlings are produced it is possible that the hybridizer may be able to choose specific seedlings that are not as badly affected by the inbreeding and sometimes not affected at all. That is partially based on inbreeding levels being different in the seedlings from an inbred cross as well as the characteristics - averages are involved for the inbreeding levels as well.

James, right, but the Star Registry is so much better, because you don't have to plant anything, especially in rocky soil!

Larry, I agree that the better idea would be for registration to be tied to membership. Hybridizer is a loose term, I guess I was trying to say the same thing.

I keep thinking of the AKC, and the distinction between AKC-recognized breeders and puppy mills. The puppy mills actually manage to register their dogs (until they are caught), but consumers who are looking for a humanely bred and raised, good quality puppy will look for the AKC recognition. Or they will look for a rescue, also good.

Also a lot of this makes me think about the ways in which daylilies are sold, for what purpose, at what scale.... and how this impacts hybridizer actions. The secretiveness implied by UNK x UNK is to me not surprising considering the (at least perceived) possibility of recreating something similar by copying a cross.

I can understand keeping the parentage of a cross that produced a unique characteristic secret (Unk x Unk). However, those types of crosses are rare. I expect that there will always be hybridizers who simply do not record the parentage of their seeds. Some of the most prolific hybridizers have not recorded the parentage of their crosses. I think that Pauline Henry who produced the Siloam daylilies very rarely recorded the parentage of her crosses.

Accidents do happen - a seed falls to the floor but it cannot be correctly identified or the contents of several pods fall and are mixed and each pod was from a different cross. Or seeds are found in among several packets of seeds from different crosses. All these happen to me more than once a season. Or a daylily is found growing in a pathway or in a row of seedlings but not in a position that was hand planted. I have had these happen more than once also.

SueVT said:I keep thinking of the AKC, and the distinction between AKC-recognized breeders and puppy mills. The puppy mills actually manage to register their dogs (until they are caught), but consumers who are looking for a humanely bred and raised, good quality puppy will look for the AKC recognition. Or they will look for a rescue, also good.

@SueVT -- Interesting metaphor, although I don't think I would accuse non-ADS members of contributing to poor daylily welfare, although you could probably accuse ME of occasional daylily neglect.

Side note about dog breeders: based on my extensive personal experience (I've worked with quite a number of breeders), there are actually three groups: those who are working to further the AKC standard in the breed, the puppy mills (with or without welfare problems, welfare concerns are separate) with a primary economic goal, and those who are just trying to raise good pups and may recoup some of their costs through sales. Disclosure: I do receive grant support from AKC's Canine Health Foundation.

admmad said:
Thank you.
Crossing F1 seedlings with F1 seedlings to produce the F2 generation is inbreeding. Unique characteristics rely on new mutations. Mutations are very rare but can occur in every generation. Approximately 95% of new mutations produce characteristics that are "recessive" and not visible when they first occur. The remaining 5% produce characteristics that are "dominant" when they first occur and immediately visible.

Yes, if you inbreed you have a better chance of finding new characteristics than if you do not inbreed.

However, there is a negative side to inbreeding, even just to produce the F2 generation. Both Stout and Arisumi indicated that inbreeding depression is severe in diploid daylilies. According to genetic theory inbreeding depression should be much less severe in tetraploid daylilies.

Inbreeding depression will appear in the seedlings in any of many different ways. Inbred daylilies may be slower growing, have fewer buds, have more problems opening their flowers, have less substance to their flowers, have less robust scapes, fewer scape branches, increase at slower rates, be less cold hardy, less disease resistant, less fertile, have smaller seeds and fewer seeds, have smaller flowers, and so on. The greater the inbreeding the stronger the inbreeding depression the worse the negative effect on the plant's characteristics. These negative effects are all in comparison to the average values of the characteristics in outbred daylilies.

Inbreeding depression would be measured by crossing a daylily to several unrelated plants, chosen at random and measuring the characteristics of the seedlings (outbred seedlings). Then those measurements would be averaged. The plant would then be self-pollinated and the same characteristics would be measured on the inbred seedlings. The difference between the average measurements of the inbred seedlings versus the average measurements of the outbred seedlings is an estimate of inbreeding depression. To get a better estimate of how inbreeding depression affects any specific character crosses would be made with the plant to produce different amounts of inbreeding and the seedlings from those crosses would have their characteristics measured. To get a more general estimate of how inbreeding affects various characteristics in daylilies in general the whole thing would be repeated with more than one original daylily.

Since these effects are based on average values of many seedlings it means that in any group of seedlings there will be ones with less than average values of the characteristics and ones with more than average values of the characteristics. That means if enough inbred seedlings are produced it is possible that the hybridizer may be able to choose specific seedlings that are not as badly affected by the inbreeding and sometimes not affected at all. That is partially based on inbreeding levels being different in the seedlings from an inbred cross as well as the characteristics - averages are involved for the inbreeding levels as well.

Wow, thank you very much for explaining the good and the bad with inbreeding. I really appreciate the whole picture! Do you happen to know anyone who has done inbred tets. I wonder what their results are like. Thanks again Maurice!

@Kousa

Do you happen to know anyone who has done inbred tets. I wonder what their results are like.

Only from second hand information that came from Judy Davisson.
The information I have is that Al Goldner did not outcross; he only self-pollinated generation after generation. There are Goldner registrations (quite a few with others) and his plants may have registered offspring from other hybridizers.

Inbreeding can be much slower in tetraploids than in diploids and therefore inbreeding depression can be much less. Consider that in a diploid cross of Aa x Aa (a self-pollination for example) one quarter (on average) of the seedlings will be AA and one quarter (on average) will be aa. That is the result (considered "bad") of the inbreeding. In a tetraploid it is possible that in a cross of AAaa x AAaa (although there are other possibilities) only 1/36 may be AAAA and only 1/36 may be aaaa. It is also possible in tetraploids that the cross of AAaa x AAaa produces only or nearly all AAaa seedlings (called fixed heterozygosity).

@Kousa
I should also have added that finding new characteristics is easier in diploids than tetraploids even if one inbreeds.

Megan, Sue and Tim I am reading This is good stuff for people that like things broken down into stats, graphs and so on. There are graphs involve in my trade that are very useful for diagnosing problems.
Megan for 20 acorns and a mule I will give you the definite name of your flower above
Ok. You can pay it forward "Entrapment". Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Entrapment')

Hazelcrestmikeb said:
Megan for 20 acorns and a mule I will give you the definite name of your flower above
Ok. You can pay it forward "Entrapment". Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Entrapment')

My hero! I'm low on acorns, consider this a downpayment, thanks!!!

Megan and Larry, thanks for the BIG acorn gifts

admmad said:Are the graphs of the number of hybridizers over time or are they of the number of hybridizers who registered at least one daylily in each year or ? How are years in which a hybridizer did not register any daylilies handled (gaps in their registrations)?

How were the hybridizers who registeed both tetraploids and diploids handled?

How were, the admittedly, probably quite few, hybridizers who hybridized one ploidy for a few years and then switched to the other ploidy handled?

@admmad, here's a note from @Dennis616:

"The hybridizer count data is simply a count of distinct hybridizer names associated with the registration of plant with a given ploidy in a given year. If a particular hybridizer registered 1 dip in a given year, they add 1 to the dip count for that year. If a particular hybridizer registered multiple plants of the same ploidy in a given year, they only add 1 to the count of that ploidy for that year. If the same hybridizer registered both dips and tets in a given year, they add 1 to the count of each ploidy for that year. If a particular hybridizer did not register a dip or tet in a given year then they do not add to the relevant counts."

I'll add that @Dennis616 got me some interesting scape height data. I'm tied up with the holiday for the moment, but will post some more ADS registration data output soon!

Note to those following along: @admmad's questions were spot on--if you don't know the assumptions made behind your cool graphs, they may still look cool, but they may be less useful to answer your important questions. As I teach my students, the question is at least as important as the data.

Happy Holidays!

As a supplement: Here's a cross reference to a really good prior thread about genetics:
The thread "Hemerocallis Species, Hybrids, and Genetics. Terry McGarty." in Daylilies forum

cf our epigenetics tangent here: @terry2 has a great specific post on epigenetics: https://garden.org/thread/view...
(And I can give the five-year update that at least in mammals (humans, mice), a lot of this, yes, is known to be controlled by DNA methylation or histone modification. In my field, we are doing a lot of work on what are called "Gene x Environment" interactions (read as: gene by environment), where chemical or other environmental exposures, perhaps even stress and nutrition/diet, can influence the epigenome and change gene expression in the host or its offspring. Disclosure: I haven't done a deep dive on this in plants yet....)

@admmad Thanks Maurice! I will check into his work! I have bookmarked your post and also saved it to my hybridizing notes. Many thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Your generosity in sharing knowledge is very appreciated.

Megan, I don't know how you do it! You have great sleuthing skills! What a wonderful thread to have dug up. I have no idea this treasure trove of information is hidden in these old threads. Thanks for posting the link.

For those who are interested in daylily biology and are on Facebook, you may be interested in joining my Daylily Biology group. You would need to ask to join it https://www.facebook.com/group...

The group is closed/private.

Searching back through previous posts should produce a few graphs, figures, etc. for those interested.

Happy Holidays! Thanks to @Dennis616, we have some data on daylily scape heights by ploidy and year.

Here's an overall look at scape height by year overall and by ploidy. I've grouped the data into the early years (to 1970, lighter colors), 1971-1996 (medium colors), and the most recent years (1997-2013, darkest colors).


By Diploid:


By Tetraploids:


Dennis and I have looked at this a few different ways, and there's an interesting trend of decreasing scape height, followed by increasing scape height.



There is a statistically significant drop of almost 7 inches in scape height from the early years (to 1970) to the period 1971-1996. The most recent years (1997-2013) are still 3.5 inches shorter (on average) compared to the early years (to 1970), but are taller than the low point between 1971-1996. On average, diploids are statistically just a little taller than tetraploids (28.6 inches versus 28.3 inches) across the whole period of data, and the gap widens a bit in the recent era (29.4 inches for diploids versus 28.8 inches for tetraploids).

Methods: These data were abstracted by @Dennis616 from the ADS registration data from origin to 2013, with data aggregated into two-inch groups with counts of the total number of registrations, e.g. 26" data represent 26" and 27" data combined. Data then were dis-aggregated to run statistical analyses in Stata. The three categories (to 1970, 1971-1996, and 1997-2013) were data-driven (divide the data into roughly thirds, but remember that tetraploids were only introduced in the 1940s, so there aren't many in the earliest category).

Enjoy!
Meghan

admmad said:@Kousa
I should also have added that finding new characteristics is easier in diploids than tetraploids even if one inbreeds.

This is why I like my diploids and tet breeders need to keep converting.

One of my interests and some of my research is with the small flowered daylilies.

I have a large collection of miniature and small daylilies (mostly diploids) with over 300, maybe 400 depending on what is still alive out there, including one of the largest collections of little blue eyed diploids. I have grown about 80 from the 2 most prominent southern hybridizers dated mid/late 1980's to present registrations. One of those hybridizers has no parentage listed for any and the other has intensely inbred cultivars.

Most of them don't do well here in my 7a zone gardens and they only get to stay because I have lots of space for plants. They don't increase or bloom reliably, taking years off from blooming. I like hybridizing with them and experimenting with them so they stay and get used for seedlings when I see blooms. I typically don't cross them together like others do. My hybridizing includes some crossing of named cultivars together but most of my work will have a seedling or one of my intros as a parent.

If you look at the little blue eyed minis and check the genetics where it is available, I find these are the most inbred of any daylilies that I can find. Any one of them you choose right up to the most recent introductions are just combinations of the same narrow genetic base.

Pauline Henry who did not keep parent records of her work, made Siloam Tiny Tim in 1984. It was inbred by another hybridizer to create a few of the early blue eye minis. In 1996 Little Sensation was created. It appears Little Sensation became a focus plant moving forward and it was inbred creating others that were crossed. I believe it was done this way because this was the only way these breeders found to keep getting the blue eyes.

I have found that out crossing them even to other blue or somewhat blue eyes, it can be difficult to get blue. But I do have some true blue color in diploid eyes. I have not seen much in tetraploids that is a true blue color.

I still have lots of experiments that I want to do with the blue eyed minis but only about 20% bloom each year in my gardens. (some years less). I have made several excellent performing high bud count seedlings from them. Maybe some future introductions but I see why the inbreeding is done to expedite the desired results. The only year I tried it, (thinking of making a few more bridge plants) I lost 95+% of the seedlings.

kidfishing said:
One of my interests and some of my research is with the small flowered daylilies.

@kidfishing, this data analysis is dedicated to you. =)

Thanks once again to the remarkable data abilities of @Dennis616, I've got another ADS analysis from 1960 to 2013 to share: this one on flower size. The diploids are in darker colors, the tetraploids in light. The blues are bloom sizes under 5", the maroon/pink are bloom sizes that are average: 5-6.49 inches, and the greens are the big ones (6.5inches or greater). These are percents within ploidy, so the percent for small dips is percent within all dips, not all registrations.



An important note: the jumping around at the beginning is a result of the small sample sizes, and is not likely due to any real trends.

My main take away from this is that size seems to matter more from diploids (fewer and fewer "average" bloom size daylilies being registered), and that big blooms are increasingly popular for both dips and tets.

Enjoy, and Happy New (Daylily) Year!