JamesT said:

Sooby Where was that Griesbach article printed?

https://journals.ashs.org/down...

sooby said:

https://journals.ashs.org/down...

Thank you Sue, great article.

admmad said:@beenthere
OK, diploids do apparently, on average, have strong negative effects of inbreeding. In crosses that you consider are significant inbreeding you can alleviate the potential problems by producing many more seeds than usual and by culling more heavily for characteristics that are "closer" to "fitness". Those would be pod fertility [percentage of flowers that produce pods with seeds (when pollinated with fertile pollen)], average number of seeds in those pods); pollen fertility (percentage of flowers that set pods (of known to be fertile pod parents); rate of fan growth; rate of increase; winter hardiness; robustness (for example percentage of small fans that survive being transplanted or that survive their first winter, etc.).
It may require you to be more ruthless about the number of seedlings that end in the compost pile, but you should be able to select for fitter individuals even in crosses that on average produce less fit seedlings - as long as enough seedlings are grown.

Here is my example:
I work almost exclusively with diploids and make lots of seeds. So far this year 5000 seedlings started and not yet at 50% of seeds are planted. We will see how many we end up with.

It is true that if you make lots of seeds you will find exceptions. A good example is when I made a couple thousand miniature crosses in 2016 from EV/SEV registered plants and started them in a hoop house overwinter. Almost all were lost. I ended up with less than 5% surviving. I have a nice seedling from Little Surfer Girl. This winter I checked and it is dormant. Probably why the one out of hundreds survived. Both parents are EV in my garden but this offspring is dormant.


I am planting lots of seeds/seedlings from using the pollen in 2019 and hopefully passing dormancy/hardiness to some offspring.

Kid that is a beauty

with Mike

Me two!

admmad said:@edgar

One of the catch-22s when hybridizing with 'Stella de Oro' is that it is often naturally pollinated by insects. So to be certain that the pollen put on the flowers by hand by the hybridizer is the actual pollen that sets the seeds insects have to be prevented from visiting the flowers. Sorry, have to use 'safe hybridizing techniques' as written about in the Daylily Journal when hand pollinating Stella.

'Stella de Oro' pollen on 'Stella de Oro' flowers is expected to only produce various shades of yellow flowered seedlings. According to known genetics it cannot produce red-flowered seedlings - those can only be produced by insect pollinations with pollen from red-flowered daylilies. It is also probably not possible to produce orange-flowered seedlings from hand pollinated self-pollinations that were protected from insect visits. Purple flowered and eyed seedlings are not genetically possible from self-pollinations of 'Stella de Oro' either - only from bee pollinations that beat or mixed with the hybridizer's hand pollinations.

I have crossed 'Stella' with other cultivars and the seedlings rebloom. I have read in the past that it is difficult to get seedlings from 'Stella' that rebloom but I have not had that problem - as long as the seedlings are grown well.

Would anyone happen to know the parentage of Stella supreme. I know it's a child plant of Stella d oro, but who is the other parent. Would anyone know

The Griesbach article indicates that 'Bitsy' (1963) is the pollen or pod parent of 'Stella de Oro' (1975). That somewhat contradicts what Jablonski indicated. In an article of an interview with Jablonski (Daylily Journal Volume 36, Number 4, 1982 pg. 22, "Jablonski shares experiences") Jablonski is quoted as having said "Of course, I had BITSY (Warner). STELLA DE ORO goes back to BITSY. BITSY, SNOOPY (Warner) and another one or two." STELLA DE ORO is about four generations from BITSY he said."

From the ancestry of a couple of registrations that had 'Pinocchio' as a parent it does appear that it is heterozygous for reddish pigments (anthocyanins) in its flowers. As a parent in crosses with yellow(ish) daylilies it produced yellow(ish) offspring ('Bitsy', 'Daily Bread', 'Honey Bunny', 'Tiki') with no anthocyanins present in the "faces" of their flowers.

The Daylily Encyclopedia (Webber Gardens) lists the parentage of 'Pinocchio' as Saxton #48-5 x Mignon which would support 'Pinocchio' being heterozygous for anthocyanin (reddish) pigments.