I'd think that own-root roses would mean more profit for them.. just need a mother plant and take as many cuttings as she'd support, get her stoked up on MiracleGro, take more cuttings, etc etc etc.

Andi, I don't think anyone grafts landscape roses, with the possible exception of Palatine. Landscape roses will grow even if you just throw them down on the ground and wait long enough. Other roses often need grafting to do and look their best.

It does make more money for them, Toni. They don't have to pay for skilled grafters and they can sell roses after growing them for 6 months instead of 2 years. Also, because so many people think own-root roses are superior in some way, they'll pay more for a tiny own-root rose than a full-grown grafted one. The own-root nurseries can also cheat hybridizers out of their patent royalties. Grafted patented roses have to have a metal tag and the growers pay a fee on each tag that's issued to them. Own-root growers are on the honor system and can say they grew 100 patented roses while actually growing 1000. In one of Ray Reddell's books, he expresses his suspicion that some of the nurseries switched to own-root for that very reason. Some of the hybridizers are on to this scam and have started issuing tags even to the own-root growers. You'll notice that some own-root nurseries are now selling own-root David Austin roses with metal tags. I guess David Austin got ripped off too many times.

To date, Pickering is the only nursery to admit that it's selling more own-root roses now only because it can't afford to hire as many grafting experts as it needs.

Only reason why I like own-root versus grafted is the cold. Own roots come back for me more favorably IMO than grafted... especially if I don't bury them deep enough. I lost too many because I put the bud-union above the ground rather than the 2-6" below the ground, which makes for some deep holes. I can dig a small 12" hole for a own-root or a massive 18-24" pit for a budded rose. But that's just me 'cuz I'm lazy. LOL!

Does this mean that all the own-root from RU aren't paying royalties? I know that I see tons of "cuttings" available on eBay, but seeing as I couldn't grow anything more advanced than a wild mushroom or the mold that grows on old bread, rooting a cutting isn't much an option for me.

I would never accuse RU of not paying royalties. I'm just repeating what Reddell said in one of his books on roses. He may have had a specific nursery or two in mind, but he didn't name any names. If I ever see him when I'm at Garden Valley Ranch, I'll ask him. He sold the place years ago, but he still visits the new owner regularly.

RU actually is the last place I'd suspect of doing that, but mainly because it doesn't sell tiny twigs either. It grows own-root roses to a decent size and still charges less for them than the sellers of the tiny twigs.

I wonder if he was writing about the large nurseries or some of the smaller ones. I wouldn't patronize a company that didn't pay royalties. Most of the roses that I see in the big box stores, other than the knockouts, are older varieties, probably off patent. (I suspect that they are like the generic drug companies. They start making the popular ones as they are ready to go off patent).

I have no idea what size the own root roses are at Edmunds. I was just curious. I am a spring planter. I try to learn more about different roses and breeders and make a wishlist. I also have a landscape design computer program. I am working on my future dream garden plots incorporating my current roses and the ones on my wishlist.

Perhaps some of the newer roses are bred and/or selected to grow on their own roots. All of the Radler roses that I have seen offered are. I realize that they are "shrub" roses, but some of his latest offerings have nicer floral forms than the knockouts. If he comes up with any hybrid tea roses, I suspect they would be cold hardy and on their own roots. I am watching what he comes up with. I am glad that there is at least one rose breeder breeding roses for those of us who don't live in California or Texas. If there are others (other than the late Buck, or the Canadians) I would love to learn more about them. I suspect that one of the reasons that the knock out roses are so popular and perhaps that some rose breeders are having financial difficulty is that a large part of the gardening public (i.e. those of us with winters) are tired of dead sticks in the spring. I realize that the problem is not just grafted versus own root, but most people I know say that they "can't grow roses." The primary reason for this is that they bought roses that would not survive here. They also didn't take the time to find people like the wonderful people on this list to advise them.

I wish that, in general, sellers would clearly state if each rose is grafted or own root. If grafted, I wish that they would specify the rootstock. That would make it easier for all of us. I have to dig around in the potted roses to be certain that they are own root. The few Austins I saw in stores weren't this year. If I were open to grafted roses, I would want to see the graft.

If I lived next door to you, zuzu, I would probably want completely different types of roses. (Actually, if I lived next door to you, I would try very hard to learn how to root roses and follow you around when you prune.) If you lived here, you would probably want to move.

I read on hmf that the "new" Buck roses were from a group that he gave to friends and family that were never offered for sale. I am so happy with Honey Sweet that I would love to try some more Buck roses.

Guess what. Leaves are blown, Windows and my key programs are installed on the new internet machine - time to make dinner. I finally have the capacity to get my photos together. (I have a work machine and an internet machine - ideally with a spare that can go either way) I'll be able to show you how fabulous Honey Sweet was. (Well, fab for me, more blackspot than CaliforniaSue's wonderful photos).

Andi - I'm with you with "tired of dead sticks in the Spring" part. That's why I'm making an absolute vow not to buy any bodybag roses next year if I can avoid it. I can't think of any rose that I know of that I can't get at a reputable grower that I'd have to resort to a body bag. Of course, my memory of roses is in the single-to-barely-double-digits, but that's what iPhones and the internet is for (lord help me .. DH is starting to hate HMF). And if my phone takes too long to download an image, I carry my netbook & aircard w/me at all times so I can always look it up that way. LOL!

I'm very happy that we have the Knockout series of roses. It's getting people who'd never have a rose in their entire lives buy roses - they're impossible to kill. And, much like when I was in the fish industry, roses are very much so like a Lay's potato chip.. can't have just one. And, if someone gets hooked, they want more and more and more, thus making more "exotic" roses more available to the layman and not for the extreme collector.

As far as roses being bred not in California or Texas, High Country Roses may be up your alley. I'm not partial to the kinds they grow, but I'm a weirdo. These roses are designed for colder regions and poor soil. I know they grow QUITE well here in the D-metro.. so they should be able to take your winters there in PA. Check 'em out (http://www.highcountryroses.co...). They do own-root roses and I know that quite a few people here have ordered from them in the past w/wonderful results.

Thanks for the tip. It will help me research roses, if nothing else. I will have to check their thread.

I am honestly sick of seeing knockout roses in the stores. Why stock hundreds of the same two roses? And only those two? One of the supermarkets had two pink double knock out roses outside and they look fantastic. The bf asked me "Why don't you grow that one?" I told him that I grow its cousin, the peach one by the sidewalk. BF replied "Thought that one was an Austin." Nope. "Didn't there used to be grass there." No comment. One would think that a man who hates mowing grass would appreciate a grass free landscape. Whatever.

The bf has been busy with sick aging parents, not certain if someone who isn't around qualifies as a bf. Whatever, the vbf (virtual boyfriend with whom I communicate daily via phone and internet) thinks the garden is out of hand. I think the parents are out of hand. End of conversation. I am SO glad that I am not married. I need hybf who likes to garden (hot young boyfriend).

Andi, Edmunds' own-root roses will be a decent size. They'll get them from the same grower that sells them their grafted roses, I'm sure, and they consequently will be about 2 years old instead of a few months.

I'm really excited about the "new" Bucks Chamblee was offering. I ordered five of the new ones and planted them a month ago. They're already looking really good. (Not blooming, of course, but they're definitely going to survive.)

Okay, here's all I know about rootstocks. This might help you know which one you're dealing with. You usually can tell by the nursery where you buy them, because different rootstocks are used in different places.

Dr. Huey is the rootstock of choice for California-grown roses. You're going to see it more than any other, because at least 80% of the roses sold in the United States are grown in California. It was chosen as a rootstock because of its vigor. Dr. Huey is a once-bloomer and it's highly susceptible to powdery mildew, but it doesn't pass these traits on to the roses that are grafted onto it.

The Canadian nurseries all use Multiflora. It's winter-hardier than Dr. Huey, but that doesn't mean it will do well in zone 3. Just hardier than Dr. Huey. I like it because gophers don't like it. Also, my roses from Hortico, Pickering, and Palatine tend to get much bigger than the ones grafted onto Dr. Huey.

Edmunds' used to use Multiflora when it was a family business and grew its own roses in Oregon, but now it belongs to the Jung Seed company, based in Wisconsin, so the roses probably come from California.

I'm going to continue this in the next post. I have nightmares of losing long posts.

Okay, continued from the post above:

Fortuniana is the rootstock that was once used only in Florida and some other Southern states, but it's more widely available now and it performs beautifully in Southern California and the southern half of Northern California (that's where I am). It's no good for anyone living below zone 8. They have to use it in Florida because the nematodes there don't like it. The nematodes kill Multiflora the first year and Dr. Huey within three years. Stay away from nurseries in Florida, Louisiana, and a few other southern states that use Fortuniana rootstock. It won't survive in your zone without Herculean wintering efforts.

Manetti is even worse for you. Luckily, it's hardly used at all anymore. Wayside used it when Wayside was THE place to buy roses. They used to send out the fattest catalog imaginable and their plants were spectacular. Manetti is so fragile, though, that it's now used almost exclusively on greenhouse-grown roses for the cut flower trade.

The only other rootstock I've ever heard of is Laxa. It's from Siberia, so you know it's winter-hardy, but it must have other problems because no one uses it. Buck used it in his breeding program (that's why so many of his roses will live in the cold zones where other roses die) and he used it as a rootstock. Yes, I know most Buck roses are own-root now, but Dr. Buck grafted his roses when he was alive.

I just have a couple of other things to say about rootstock, but I'll do it in the next post. I keep expecting a power outage.

I wanted to repeat a couple of things I've said before, but I may have said them in Dave's Garden, not here. Grafting is usually done to make hybrid teas and floribundas more vigorous. If you've grown own-root hybrid teas, grandifloras, and floribundas, you know that many of them can still look puny and small even after years in comparison with the rose bushes you see at public gardens, where most of the roses are grafted.

And it isn't only those classes of roses that benefit from grafting. It isn't necessary to graft minis and shrubs, but it sure doesn't hurt them. Some of the own-root nurseries are selling Pomponella now, and they call it a short rose. Rogue Valley says it's 2 feet tall, for instance. My grafted Pomponella from Palatine is taller than I am. I'm short, but I'm not under 2 feet tall.

The other thing about grafting is that it keeps monster roses in check. Just as it allows hybrid teas to grow to their proper height of 4-5 feet or so, it keeps Queen Elizabeth at that height too. My Queen Elizabeths are not grafted. They root so easily that they grew from pruning debris. They're all over 8 feet tall, and one of them climbs to the top of a magnolia tree each year, no matter now far I prune it down in December. The stick it grew from did not come from a climbing Queen Elizabeth either, just from a nice, normal-sized grafted QE.

Dr, Huey is listed on hmf as hardy in zone 6b and warmer. That may be their default. Some of the members grow it in colder zones. I suspect that my problem was the spring freeze/thaw stress. The plants that died died at the graft. Some even split at the graft. All were bargain "body bag" roses from big box stores. I have only been growing roses for a few years. I probably would have moved on to other plants unless I had gotten lucky and gotten a potted own root Austin rose, Wildeve, from Walmart. I loved the warm peachy pink kissed with yellow antique blooms on the healthy plant. It has survived and thrived. I googled "AUSbonny" found Dave's garden, followed you here....

I am doing well with the own root roses, so I am sticking to own root roses that have done well for others in cold climates. If I decide to try a grafted rose, I will make sure it is a Canadian rose on multiflora rootstock.

How frustrating. I hope the power problems don't affect your computer.

Thank you so much for the information. I will bookmark the site as reference.

If I see Queen Elizabeth in a body bag on sale, I may bring her home to try propagating. I started a few sticks today, I'll see how they do.

hmf states that laxa is susceptible to rust. Maybe that was the problem. It also said that it didn't sucker. It is hardy from 4b to 9.

Get your Canadian rose from Palatine or Pickering, Andi. Hortico has become too unreliable.

The body bag roses usually are the bottom of the barrel. I went to a nursery in Petaluma once when they had just received their big fall shipment of bare-root grafted roses. The nursery owner and his crew were working on a mountain of roses, separating them into three big piles of approximately the same size. The perfect ones, with at least four thick canes and no gouges or splits went into the pile of roses to be sold bare-root to local and mail-order customers. The second pile was for healthy roses with no visible damage, but with thinner canes or only three canes. Those would be potted up in 5-gallon containers and sold at the nursery to local customers. The third pile was for anything that looked unhealthy or damaged. Those were the rejects that were going back to the grower. I'm pretty sure the growers sell those to the body bag rose distributors, the big box stores, and some of the online nurseries that have gone downhill (Wayside comes to mind).

Suckers aren't such a big problem. I have more than 1500 rose bushes. I'm not sure how many are grafted, but I think at least half of them are. Three of those 750 or more roses have sent up suckers that had to be pulled off the rootstock below the graft -- two Hueys and one Multiflora. They're so easy to spot, though, because Dr. Huey and Multiflora have foliage that doesn't look anything like the roses grafted onto them.

In the past I wasn't as vigilant about getting rid of the suckers, so I do have a few Dr. Huey's dotting my landscape, but no more than four or five, which is not bad after 25+ years of growing grafted roses here.

Andi - Once again, please make sure that you plant the grafted rose so that the graft is at LEAST 2-3" below the ground level. If you leave it up, then the definite frosts/freezes/thaws will split it. The earth will protect the bud union. That's how I lost all the ones I lost over the winter.. they weren't buried low enough. And, seeing as it's already 37 degs at 7:03pm with a windchill of 31 and dropping like flies, I'm expecting a VERY cold night tonight of just the ambient temperature, not including a windchill.

In fact, I'm freezing right now.. my fingers are chilled, so it's hard for me to type.

:) All of the roses I've gotten to survive all had the same thing in common: deep burials. I know it's tough digging through the shale, but that's what has to be done. If nothing else, get topsoil brought in and have above ground beds that are ungodly highup. Plus the mulching will help (try JoannaBanana's trick of using peat moss).

Here we keep the graft union 1 or 2 inches above the ground so that we can identify suckers right away. Couldn't you do that and then cover that part in winter with a tall pile of mulch or peat moss?

Most books say to plant the graft below the surface and still cover with peat moss/compost/leaves. They debate how many inches below the surface. It might make sense to plant it as you suggest, zuzu, considering the freeze/thaw. I think the best strategy is to place sensitive plants like grafted roses and some bulbs in carefully located raised beds. I visited RosesAreRed's garden for a plant swap this summer. She has both grafted and own root roses growing in raised beds.

I have only been gardening a few years. I am so happy to have roses that survive to bloom the following spring. I am collecting quite a few plants in a rather small space, but I am learning a lot and enjoying myself.

An old timer told me "The Poconos is rock and swamp. You want to be on the rocks." Well I am. This town surrounds a valley among the mountains. I am in a higher elevation. The lower elevations are near the river. This week, the Autumn colors are breathtaking. Today's pictures were too dark, too much cloud cover. I'll keep trying.

I read this years ago but just came across it again and thought everyone would enjoy reading it. Written a while back by Kim Rupert (a He, not a she by the way) concerning own root and budded plants.
http://www.helpmefind.com/gard...

That is an AWESOME article! and I like how the person, Kim Rupert (can't call her her, can't call him him, as I know both males and females with the name "Kim") put the notion on the bottom to state "In my observation/in my climate/etc". That's how I feel. I know what works here in Colorado and in upstate NY. But in an area that doesn't have a real winter (cold/snow) for at least 3 months of the year? No clue!! I think I'd be going hog-wild in a warmer environment. In fact, I just read an article yesterday about Banana Cannas. We have a name for those here in Colorado: Annual. However, there's a variety that can survive an Iowa winter. If it can survive an Iowan winter, it DEFINITELY can survive here! I thought that all the ones I keep seeing downtown were planted as annuals (they're planted with zinnas and the like, which are annuals). Maybe, just maybe, they'll survive here? It's all about personal experience.

But getting back to Edmunds, it doesn't state if they're grafted or own-root. Clues anyone?

If Edmunds doesn't say, I think it is grafted. The few that are own root state own root. You could probably email them if you want to be sure.

Great article. This quote confirmed my suspicions.

"'Dr. Huey', which is the major root stock used in this country is rated as hardy to Zone 6 and higher. What do you do when you live in Zone 5 or lower and you want to grow cold hardy roses? "