That's mostly what I do, Rick, prick them out as soon as they look viable, and I generally have good results doing that.

there are lots of those Rick.. put in time lapse seedling

Sorry, I hadn't seen Allison's post. I'll delete the repeat.

GMTA.. even picked the same one

RickCorey said:I think I'm potting mine up or transplanting them 'way too late. I try to wait until the root ball in the six-pack insert or plug cell is solid enough to pop out without crumbling.

Maybe I should aim for the other extreme: prick them out while the root is too small to rip apart.

That's what I try to do too- prick them out when young and small, if they're sown into a common container. If they're in cells, I wait until they really are getting root bound.

I think it should be easier to prick them out of vermiculite than out of soil though, without damaging the seedling.

Karen

>> If they're in cells, I wait until they really are getting root bound.

That is what I'm doing now. I use prop trays with 50 or 128 cells, or the "six-pack" tear-apart inserts with 72 cells. Maybe I'm waiting TOO long. I'm squeamish about root balls falling apart and (presumably) ripping root hairs and small roots. But I'm sure it doesn't make a plant happy to be 110% root-bound.

I own two trays with 20 narrow "rows" ... that seems like an interesting compromise between single-cells and a big flat. When I started, seed starting, I used some small flats. Pricking the tiny things out did work, but pulling tangled rootlets apart made me uncomfortable! As if I could hear them scream.

>> time lapse seedling

Thanks, Allison & Karen !

I dunno, Rick. I have let things get more root-bound than I'm happy with before setting them out, and then when I clean up the containers in the fall, ripping out the dead stuff, that whole block comes out intact, as though the roots really never went any farther. I think a lot depends on the type of plant as to whether or not letting them get root bound is good or not. Maybe ok for some perennials and not so good for annuals?

>> Maybe ok for some perennials and not so good for annuals?

I've heard blood-chilling advice about how root-pruning is "good for" many plants, and is the only solution to pot-circling totally root-bound plants. Someone posted a photo where he chopped off a third of a root ball and tore the rest up (well, he unraveled it), and it survived.

I plan to be more aggressive this year about unraveling hopelessly dense root balls ... and as always, try to find time to plant them when they NEED to be planted!

I haven't posted here at ATP much, but this topic caught my interest. So I thought I'd share my experience in hoping it will be helpful to others. I've been sowing in vermiculite for about three (3) years now. I don't recall getting that information from here or DG, but I do know what started it. I also had those terrible little clear tender root-eating worms. Those are fungus gnat larvae. They were wiping out my seedlings. They love the bark/peat potting mixes ... and tender roots! After much internet search, and what others had tried, I tried using the mosquito dunks (sorry, I can't think of the name of the actual stuff), and although others had raved about it, it certainly didn't help me. Somehow I started sowing in vermiculite and my fungus gnat problem is pretty much gone.

I use small styrefoam containers to start my seedlings (these are the ones restuarants use for carry-out dressings). I enclose these in sandwich baggies until the seeds start germinating, then I remove the baggie. So I've never left them as humidy domes of a sort. I overhead water because the containers tend to want to float if I try to bottom water. It is difficult though to know when they are dry enough to need water, but I have learned by the feel of the weight of the cup when water is necessary, or sometimes the seedlings just tell me by their wilt.

After germination, the seedlings are generally in the styrefoam containers for 3-4 weeks (sometimes longer which hasn't been a problem for perennials). I like them to get some pretty good roots going before transplant. The one thing I really appreciate about the vermiculite is that the roots are so much less tangle free than in potting mix where I fought to get them apart and tear up the roots, the roots growing into the bark. I usually then pot up the seedlings to 3-cell packs or the small 2" containers, using a good potting mix containing light fertilizer. If fungus gnats should come, I have found that the seedlings then have a good enough root system before the larvae hatch that they are able to withstand the chewing on their roots.

I start the seedlings indoors, and use the small styrefoam containers for lack of space. I try to time it where shortly after transplant, the seedlings will be able to go outside to a sheltered location.

Thanks for the input.

Some of my ech seedlings never did stand up. They're still lying flat on the surface, and I just don't foresee them ever standing up after all this time. Funny, the cotyledon leaves still look green and healthy, but the stem keeps elongating while on the surface of the wet vermiculite. After all this time on the wet vermiculite, I can't believe they haven't totally rotted. I guess I should prick those out and leave the normal, upright seedlings.

The begonias are still tiny specs, and I need a magnifying glass to really see them.

Karen

huh.. maybe not enough to grab a hold of.. too loose?

Don't know.

I was just going to peek at my begonias. I dropped the container My hands are so clumsy. The older I get, the less I know just what my hands will do when I attempt to use them. My handwriting has even changed dramatically to a kind of scratchy, old lady scrawl.

I'm not a happy camper.

Karen

Karen I know how you felt when that container dropped. I drop whole trays at times.

Oh, no! How frustrating! Grump, this getting older isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Do you have any more of the seeds to try?

A few, but I think it's too late for this year. Begonias are so slow. Anybody know for sure?

Karen

Here, I would almost like to start them in December.
Begonias do take a long time---the tuberous ones do!
The fibrous rooted ones might take a little less time?

Thanks, Carolyn. The one in question (that I dropped!) was B. Boliviensis. That's supposed to form a tuber, so I'm thinking it's going to be a real slowpoke in terms of growth. Probably too late to try again. Maybe a miracle will happen and one or two will survive in the dropped container. I'll hang on to it for a while.

Karen

I called Harris seed yesterday to ask when the B. Boliviensis should be started but they were closed. So I emailed the question. They replied.

"Depending on the use, they should be started 12-15 weeks before you are ready to plant them outside. For pack/pot size 12 weeks, for larger plants for baskets then 15 weeks. Please let me know if you have any other questions."

It really is late to get them sizable enough in time.

Karen

A little update on my vermiculite-started seeds.

These are the begonia Dragon Wing. If you really squint, you can see a few red specks


These are the boliviensis. It's the container that I dropped. Apparently all the seeds ended up in the center


This is the first container of echinacea. I had pricked out a few with the enlonated stems that continued to lay on the surface. Some of the others didn't look great either


I did 2 more small containersof echs about a week or two later. On those I made sure I really stuck the seeds down well into the vermiculite.




I pricked out all of the echs today and potted them up. The best, healthiest looking ones with good true leaves had amazing root systems. The smaller, less formed ones had much less impressive roots.

I pricked out and potted up all the echs today. Some are really tiny cotyledon stage one. Hopefully, some will make it


Karen