My mother had 18 inches between her house and a fence. There were always seedlings and saplings growing where I could not reach and I could not squeeze back there. So, I purchased something called brush and sapling killer. It was in a bottle that would squirt for 12 feet. So I sprayed from the front then from the back to make sure I got everything and it killed everything. I only used it once to get a handle on things. She had a big problem and the foundation of the house was in danger.

If you want a organic weed killer try vinegar. Strong vinegar like pickling kind. Spray full strength when it looks like no rain. This will also lower the PH and keep them from growing back. Use a funnel and make sure you don't get it on anything else.

Also I have heard of vegetable oil but it will stain, if small weeds around a sidewalk you can just use boiling water. My mother also used a 'used oil' to kill very stubborn weeds and Ivy.

A real large area. try a large, thick sheet of clear plastic. The sun will shine through it and cook the weeds. I think 2 weeks will do.

Welcome, Rose!

And thanks for the googling. I did not know what words to use for the "to nitrate" part.
So you might feel it is over your head, but you were above me there!

It's poison ivy, not oak here, but I smother it, too. I bend it over under a piece of cardboard and put a brick on it. Or just a brick or rock if I catch it when it's small enough.

virginiarose said:My mother had 18 inches between her house and a fence. There were always seedlings and saplings growing where I could not reach and I could not squeeze back there.

This is one of the situations I was asking about. What's growing at my friend's house is boston ivy and it is getting into the attic. I have decided to use salt on it because of where it is.

At home between my fence and the neighbor's is where I am hoping I can use the ammonia so I can replant my fence line with fruit trees.

I'm off to google now, thanks to Roseblush1.....

Still unable to find a number for the basic "oxidation rate of ammonia in soil".
I need to know if it takes days, weeks, months, or years.
And IF years, how many?

There is no oxidation of ammonia in soil! Perhaps some if the right bacteria are present.
It simply evaporates---but depends on temperature, pH of soil- etc.---
No one can give you an exact number of days etc.
If you have warm weather and alkaline dry soil---it might be days
If it is cold and wet -- then maybe years.
You have asked a question which does not have a simple solution.
It is a plant food so the plants will use some of it.
Using ammonia as a herbicide is NOT environmentally friendly, because it makes for air pollution!

The reason you are not getting answers from people with experience is that none of us use the stuff!
I would not use vinegar either as it pollutes the soil. It takes years after use for the soil to return to growing anything.

Thank you.

Some gardener had told me that ammonia "eventually" turns into nitrogen. I just wondered if it would happen within one season, 2 seasons, etc.

Vinegar is only for gravel parking lots and such.

And I guess I will cut out the old fence so I can get in between it and my chain link fence to cut the rose of sharon and grape vines to the ground and cover everything with cardboard and mulch. That's more energy than I wanted to spend with my "little old lady" back - and more money, but I can take the old fence to the scrap yard.....

In my research I did find some evidence that ammonia does turn into nitrites, then nitrates in soil. But no mention of how long it takes. That particular study was done in Africa.

Where I live, Pittsburgh, we have all 4 seasons - from 0 degrees to 90. It's rarely dry unless the water is all frozen. It's very humid here in the heat.

Can you quote me some evidence that ammonia and/or vinegar are air pollutants when used as no more than 3 gallons?

No I can't---that is a small quantity---but if everybody did it???
It is the bacteria in soil which converts ammonia to nitrates and nitrites.
I doubt they are on the surface of the soil.

Ammonia is a gas which dissolves in water---and can pollute the air.
Vinegar is acetic acid dissolved in water-it stays in the soil for a long time---and some gets washed into the storm drains.

Salt is not a good alternative because it gets washed into the rivers also.
It can stay in the soil also, and is detrimental to plant and animal life.

Just because something is in our kitchen cupboards ---does not make it safe.

[/quote] Just because something is in our kitchen cupboards ---does not make it safe.[/quote]

I understand that.
What I am looking for advice on is WHICH IS THE BEST ALTERNATIVE TO ROUNDUP???
Previously, I had been advised toward vinegar and/or ammonia, so I was looking for details.
I don't want to use Roundup and poison the little critters who get eaten by the bigger critters, etc.

And in my first post, I tried to explain where my 2 problem areas are.
My fence line is where I want to eventually plant fruit trees.
My friend's house is in an already seriously industrial location.

There might be an acceptable solution to the round up problem. I have done this several times but not when rain is in the near forecast. Take a paint brush or sponge brush and paint the full strength RU onto the leaves of the unwanted plant and it will absorb it into the roots only and the other plants nor the soil will be effected. After it dries you can lay clear plastic over it if you are worried about the critters. As for the rose of Sharon, that is a shrub? Dig it up.

Thanks VR. I like the brush idea for the Roundup.
The rose of sharon is between my chain link fence and the neighbor's antiquated knee high fence. It self seeds. And it has runaway grape vines all over it. Even if I can cut the fence out of it, I don't think I can get a shovel into it. It and the grapes have been there 50 years. the fence longer.

Yikes! Sounds like my mothers house. Brush and Sapling killer is the only way to get a handle on something like that. Unless you want to set it on fire. Oh, Lord!!!


http://www.ehow.com/how_556533... (check this out)


If you can not dig up the ROS, just prune it real hard so it will not bloom. Can you do that??

virginiarose said:Yikes! Sounds like my mothers house. Brush and Sapling killer is the only way to get a handle on something like that. Unless you want to set it on fire. Oh, Lord!!!


http://www.ehow.com/how_556533... (check this out)


If you can not dig up the ROS, just prune it real hard so it will not bloom. Can you do that??

Well, I would LIKE to set it on fire!!!! But after 20 years living in the mountains of California, I'm rather afraid of fires getting out of control..... Brsides, I might get arrested here within city limits....

I've done the pruning thing TWICE since I've had the house.

I have permission from the neighbor to kill it - I just don't know HOW!!!!

And about the critters and the synthetic herbicides...
The OTHER fence line in my back yard, on the other side from the one with the "double fence" situation, I cleared of grapevines by hand. And when I was out there tugging on them, I disturbed a rather large, harmless snake. It moved along the back of the house and onto the other side. I am afraid it or its descendants are living there still, feeding on chipmunks and such as it had apparently been doing since a lifetime before I arrived here.

So I guess I will cut out the fence (OH my aching back!), cut the offending plants to the ground, cover with cardboard and mulch until I can buy my fruit trees to espalier on my chain link fence.........

OH! My aching back!!!!

I agree with Caroline about how hard it is to say HOW FAST ammonia will dissipate - there are too many variables, like how much you apply, what the pH of your soil is, how much rain you get, and how fast your soil drains or runs off.

Maybe a better question to start with is HOW MUCH and how concentrated it has to be, to be an effective herbicide. It will make soil basic or caustic , if you have enough. Were you planning to start with household ammonia (5-10% ammonium hydroxide), or an industrial chemical like anhydrous ammonia?

Another thing too consider is that classic chemical herbicides are relatively selective, like killing plants more than they kill soil life. Ammonia would be very selective. Since its mode of action is probably just caustic destruction of plant tissue, it would probably kill soil microbes faster than it kills roots. Certainly fungi would be more vulnerable than higher plants, and maybe even bacteria would be killed. You might wind up with sterile soil even after the ammonia came back. But you can re-inoculated soil with compost etc.

I don't know for sure that ammonia is worse than 2,4-D, Agent Orange, or large amounts of salt, I'm just saying that even if it can be made to work, such a high concentration seems likely to kill other things, until it's diluted.

Until you get enough concentration to be toxic, it is a fertilizer. And once it's diluted, it will again be a fertilizer.

Maybe a blow torch would be more effective, if it has enough range to reach past the fence.

If you soil used to be very acid, ammonia will certainly cure that!

But ammonia is very soluble in water, and the first few strong rains will wash "lots" away. When the local concentration is less than it takes to be a poison, remember that what is left is high-nitrogen fertilizer, and any plants that survived or re-colonized it will take the ammonia up and be stimulated.

If you apply enough ammonia to kill plants, some will evaporate and smell very bad. That's local air pollution, but what evaporates into the atmosphere will be washed out of the air by the first rain, where it will again fertilize whatever it falls on. Maybe it would be more of an air pollutant in a very arid region.

I don't think you can put enough ammonia into the air to be a serious pollutant one block away, starting with a few gallons of household ammonia (5-10%). If you have enough, concentrated enough, to annoy your neighbors a block away, I think your eyes and lungs would have stopped you from pouring the third or fourth gallon.

Good luck whichever way you go! I know I'm mostly nay-saying and being unhelpful, except for the idea of a weed torch. It's not like using a flamethrower - you don't even need to get steam from the weeds, just heat them to 160. Would it kill roots? I'm guessing not.

http://www.ehow.com/how_866629...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Look what I found!!

"Poison Ivy Killer: Prevent problems with poison ivy growing in your yard by adding 3 pounds of salt to a gallon of soapy water, and spraying the mixture on the leaves and stems of the poison ivy plants."

virginiarose said:Look what I found!!

"Poison Ivy Killer: Prevent problems with poison ivy growing in your yard by adding 3 pounds of salt to a gallon of soapy water, and spraying the mixture on the leaves and stems of the poison ivy plants."

Great find!

Gonna try it out as soon as it starts to leaf out!!!

EXCELLENT, Virginia!
Wonder if it will work on Boston Ivy????