Sheri, when you get your results back and know if it is actually a problem with the plants post a list here, and I will check and see if I might still have some of the ones you grew and might be able to share in the fall.

HI everyone
I just read more of your thoughts and replies
I will try to answer hard when I can not read a reply from you and post on each reply
LOL memory...
Well the dirt is that color, dark and was bought soil for years way down below is clay soil.
I hoe it is why there are no weeds!
I never use mulch around daylilys ..just hoe them and hand weed them

I used milorganite dug down around each daylily hill the past three years on March first ...no more fertilizer the rest of the year. I am afraid to put pellet fertilizer dug down in our extremely hot summers..

The daylilys were beautiful until the copper sulfate spraying about four years ago
I am not bragging I am telling you they were drop dead gorgeous in height and flower blooms and foliage and grew so much that I had to divide them every two to three years, roots were big and healthy..

they get morning sun up till about 3 pm

sheltered by huge trees but no tree shade directly on them..

The woods keep the hot west sun off them which is great on my entire flower bed.

I do not remember the name of the particular copper sulfate
we threw the bottle away when empty years ago.

the next three years I used Bravo.

it was not thrips nor aphids that did. this damage

and sadly I do not have saved pictures after I contacted Auburn ag dept an sent them to them before and after pictures.. 4 years ago..time frame.

one of you said you had a short scape that was suppose to be tall
that is true of every one of my 60 plants since the copper spraying.

My green foliage was perfect in March and early April...the plants never multiplied since the spraying of copper sulfate..that was a tell tale to me
along with. short scapes...blooms blooming down 3 inches above the crown
of the daylilys..

I do have one plant bought that did have higher scapes and in the same dirt and same bed it bloomed pretty this year here it is below
its name is Action Figure
below photo
its foliage is not as it ought to be
but the bloom was taller as should be and pretty

If I forget anything please ask me again...

Seedfork, you are so kind. That touched my heart
on offering me daylilys for replacement. Thank you .

action figure daylily below

never sprayed with copper sulfate

purchased last year from a local daylily seller.
these are the colors I like to have and photograph
and large blooms on 34 or 36 inch strong scapes.

I might have missed something, but you said you were spraying the copper to prevent rust, did the plants actually have rust?

This is a long shot but in some experiments the scapes on daylilies were shortest when deprived of potassium. There is no potassium in Milorganite. The soil test should reveal if there is actually a deficiency of K.

I'm not sure how to describe it but the soil in the bed looks rather compacted and flat. Also when you dig in the Milorganite could you be going too close to the roots and inadvertently chopping some off? Daylily roots tend to grow sideways.

@Sheridragonfly

You wrote, "I do not remember the name of the particular copper sulfate
we threw the bottle away when empty years ago.

the next three years I used Bravo."

Does that mean you have sprayed the daylilies with Bravo fungicide each year for three years?

It was the Copper Sulfate!

I share this because I would not want any flower or tree or shrub or grass to be damaged after the heartache I have gone through with losing my 60 daylillys watching and working with them for four years seeing them waste away and distorted but I kept working and loving them trying to bring them back to their former beauty.

Also thanks to the person who mentioned they had studied this for me and found that copper sulfate can be used to kill tree roots!

I emailed a friend of mine last night In New Hampshire a friend of 20 years.
She verified what I had thought caused the damage that started four years ago
in both daylily beds.

I am so disappointed in who are suppose to be the best in plant pathology in
Alabama at Auburn Univ and our local extension also the past two years I have
asked for research or an answer. I laid out all the facts and it seems it would have been easy for someone to have read and told me.

My friends extension and ag dept in New Hampshire told them that copper sulfate would damage roots of plants trees and flowers!

My friends had two holly shrubs that had gotten some black spot on them so they contacted their local extension office to see if they could be cured or have to be dug up and disposed of

The Extension agent in New Hampshire the lakes region

told her to buy organic Captain jacks liquid copper fungicide!
it has no copper sulfate in this product!

He told her copper products can cause stunted growth, or no growth in many plants and flowers.

They used it and the holly shrubs look beautiful now.

Now I have asked her to ask the agent in New Hampshire after digging up all 60 daylilys and disposing of them

if the soil can be dug out from under each daylily after daylily is disposed of...

and how deep to replace the soil

so that any other plant can be planted in that space in the two flower beds.

I hope that reading this and in the future you may mention this to new daylily owners or those that might not have read my post..or basically any person growing flowers on the site in any forum...that might use a fungicide and not know about copper sulfate products..unless they buy the Captain Jacks organic copper soap that does not have the copper sulfate in it.

Anyone else want to reply Back, always appreciate your kindness and thoughts.

Sheri/sheridragonfly

@Sheridragonfly

Although I understand that you would like an answer to your daylily problem it is very important to know that there can be many different causes for problems for different plants. Some fungicides can harm some plants but do not harm other plants. Some fungicides can harm some plants when they are not used correctly (in too high concentrations) but do not harm plants when they are used correctly.

It is very important that you take soil samples from close to the affected daylilies, mix them together and send them away to be tested. It is also important that you take a tissue sample of an affected daylily and send it away to be tested. The results will provide information that will help diagnose what may be causing the problem with your daylilies.
You should wait for the samples to be analyzed and you receive the results and then discuss those results with the people at the lab. You should also post all the results of both tests here so we can all learn.

This is what the researchers wrote about using copper sulfate to kill tree roots that were growing in sewer pipe lines.

"Tree roots in contact with or immersed in copper sulfate solution absorb copper for a short distance into the root system. Use of this treatment has yet to cause the loss of a tree or shrub. "
The amount of copper sulfate used to kill the roots that are in the pipe is enormous.
"Pour copper sulfate crystals of medium size into the commode or toilet stool in small amounts, about 1/2 cup at a time, followed by successive flushing of water"

That is more or less pure copper sulfate and many cups of it. It kills the roots that are in the sewer pipe with seemingly little or no damage to the plant.
The amount of copper sulfate in the fungicide sprays will have been very very very little in comparison and has been tested as safe on many different plants when used following the instructions.

The researchers wrote
"This results in only local killing action. There is no leaf discoloration when used as follows. In fact, copper-lined containers are routinely used for growing tree seedlings."

Copper lined containers (pots) are used for growing seedlings. When the root tips reach the copper they stop growing and make branches further back. That means the seedling does not end up with long roots that circle the pot but has a more evenly distributed root system. The plant is not harmed.

I strongly advise you to send a soil sample and a tissue sample to the lab and wait for the test results.

The following is from the Bonide Captain Jack's Copper Fungicide Concentrate
Safety Data Sheet
"8.2. Exposure controls
Personal protective equipment : Avoid all unnecessary exposure.
Hand protection : Wear protective gloves.
Eye protection : Chemical goggles or safety glasses.
Respiratory protection : Wear approved mask.
Other information : When using, do not eat, drink or smoke"

When studying poisons and living things it is always important to know that the rule of thumb is that nearly everything can be harmful but that the important part is that it is the amount that matters. If more than the recommended amount of any fungicide is used then it may be harmful.

Researchers deliberately used copper sulfate on citrus seedlings to find the amount necessary in soil to harm the plants.
This is what they found when they looked at trees growing in a orchard.

There were trees that appeared sick in one part of the orchard and trees that appeared healthy in a different part. The soil in both parts of the orchard had high amounts of copper. There was an important difference between the two areas. The soil in the area with the sick trees was more acidic and it had lower amounts of several important minerals necessary for plant growth. By itself high amounts of copper sulfate in the soil was not the problem.

Maurice all good info I had read about tree roots in sewer pipes
Since there are two beds of daylilys
That the distance between them is thirty feet with healthy green centipede grass and every daylily affected with short blooms and not growing as they all did before the copper sulfate spraying it is a puzzle

I dug up five daylilys this am
Washed all soil off them
Roots were really healthy on them
Good color and firm roots

I planted them where no daylilys have been grown

I will not be able to see if short in the dirt blooms till next May 2023

I will wait to see if Auburn univ contacts me
I wrote them last week explaining it to them second time in two years

They do testing there through mail
And I thought they would have asked me two years ago when I first contacted them

to tell me if they do
Chemical type testing of soil and plant tissue.

They just emailed back and forth and said they had no clue even after I mentioned it's not thrips not aphids causing stunted growth and blooms

which never happened until I used copper sulfate spray to prevent rust on all my daylilys

Just to know what truly happened it makes no difference it's too late now for my daylily flower gardens.

Hi Sheri @Sheridragonfly,

I understand how disheartened you are that your daylilies are not producing the tall scapes they have in the past!

My career with the Ohio Department of Agriculture was primarily as a plant diagnostician working in the field (not a lab).This required being able to recognize when plants were healthy or not, and then trying to arrive at possible causes when they were not healthy, whether a pest problem or an environmental one.

The first impression I have in seeing your daylilies is that they appear to be rather healthy overall! The leaves are full grown, rich green, and do not have any evidence of the necrotic lesions seen in copper toxicity. They are flowering and the flowers are well developed and well colored.

The primary issue seems to be the shorter scapes and perhaps slower increase of the plants than before? I interpret this as possible stunting.

A low level of excess copper can contribute to stunting. So can excessive phosphorus. In fact, stunting caused by excessive phosphorus is fairly common in gardens. On June 25, you said you "used Milorganite dug down around each daylily hill on March first the past 3 years."

Milorganite is comparatively high in phosphorus and has been found to raise soil P to excessive levels when overapplied. When we fertilize daylilies, their increase in growth is mostly in response to the nitrogen content. With an analysis of 6-4-0 for N-P-K, by the time enough nitrogen is added from Milorganite to get a strong response, the phosphate is building rapidly toward too much. The nitrogen leaves the soil readily. Phosphorus doesn't.

I agree with those who say to get a soil analysis. Any soil testing lab can check copper in addition to the usual basics. There may be an extra charge. Then rely on your Extension Service to help interpret the results if they are not clear.

You evidently did not see any evidence of unhealthy roots when you checked? At low levels excessive copper can cause roots to be thicker and shorter than normal while otherwise looking healthy. But I am not inclined to think that the copper is causing the symptoms you're seeing.

By any chance in the process of digging the Milorganite around each hill could the roots have been disturbed? If a daylily is lifted and reset, that alone will cause scapes to be significantly shorter the following season and also reduce the number of branches and buds.

You planted a new daylily in the bed and it performed normally. That indicates there are not high enough levels of any element to cause a critically toxic condition. You will be able to correct the problem once you know what it is, although it may not be fast or easy to fix.

Let us know what you find out!

Pat

Good luck and let us know. . Not making any excuses but perhaps being due to the Covid pandemic the university was without enough staff to answer you.

I had the testing of plant and soil waiting on it in the
Mail
I got one answer from a suppose to be expert
From a univ that it's climate change

Well that made me shake my head

It's not environmental

Another lab I used thinks it's as Horto on here said
Soil elements

There is very high zinc

high copper 6


Low potassium
High in phosphate

I can not physically dig all up rent a tiller and irrigate and lime and retill and replant and add new
Soil

I did move 8 of them

Any more thoughts on this posting
Can give you better report if I get my results
Lab back this week On paper

Interesting about the low potassium since daylilies were shown in an experiment to have short scapes when deprived of potassium as I noted above. When some things are high they can also cause deficiencies of other elements. It will be interesting to see the results and compare plant to soil analysis because high in soil doesn't necessarily mean high in plant. Did they also give the soil pH?

My ph is 5.8
I am waiting on the paperwork
and sure I will not understand it.

Its all complicated..who would have thought
dirt/soil could be so complicated? Smiles

I have always put a plant in the soil and grew it
beautifully all my life and did nothing other than adding some
soil and usually 8 8 8 on March lst of each year to all most perennials

Of course until I sprayed with fungicide of copper sulfate spraying only that one spring

used the milorganite the past three years only in march fertilizing the daylilys one time a year..I did not use the 8 8 8 and wish I had now not used the milorganite..those 3 springs in March.

I always considered I had a green thumb all my life as did my mother and grandmother and that everything we planted and touched was exceptionally beautiful

without amending or doing much to the soil before or afterwards.

Sheri/sheridragonfly

Just the PH alone seems to be one big problem.

Hi Sheri @Sheridragonfly ,

Thanks for sharing the results you have so far. And thank you for the acorn! You're very kind.

Please don't second guess yourself on the way you've been growing your plants. Pretty much every gardener follows the same path. If you're fortunate to have a fertile soil you plant what you love, tend the garden carefully, it grows gloriously, and you plant some more! Almost no one gives much thought to the soil. It's just there, taken for granted. In 30+ years of gardening I didn't learn much about it. Graduate school courses in soils and soil fertility changed that. But no gardener is going to plunge that deep. Nor needs to!

The gardeners who run into issues with soil buildups of excess elements are the ones who care most about giving their plants good care! They're the ones carefully administering fertilizers and other additives that they expect will benefit the plants.

Unfortunately, they've been given bad advice by the so-called experts who write garden columns. How often have you read or heard to "apply a balanced fertilizer every year such as 12-12-12"? (Or 8-8-8 or 5-10-5). These are all high phosphorus fertilizers and over the years the nitrogen is used by the plants, the potassium is used or leaches away… and the phosphorus accumulates and accumulates.

Remember, the growth of the plants is going to be mostly in response to the nitrogen. It is important to the growth of all the green parts of the plants, and it is usually the most deficient element in most soils.

OK, given what we know so far, what can be done to help your garden? First, don't panic! As I said before, your plants are basically healthy. The stunting by the excess phosphorus is not affecting much other than the scapes.

The root systems are somewhat stunted but otherwise healthy. Since you can supply adequate water, that will offset most of the negative impact the shortened roots have. I'll suggest giving your plants low applications of a very slow release high nitrogen fertilizer close to the clumps where the roots can reach it. I'll get to that later.

I don't know where the suggestion to lime your soil came from. I don't advise it. A pH of 5.8 is just fine for daylilies. My 2000+ have been growing lushly in our soil of comparable pH for over 30 years. Blueberries and Rhododendrons grow fine here with no pH adjustment.

The lime recommendation is probably coming from the oft-quoted claim that daylilies prefer a pH of 6.4-6.6. Do you know how much published valid research I've seen to support this? Zero.

Here's a good reason not to lime: That raises the pH, and phosphorus is most available at pH 6.0-7.5 (and less so at lower pH such as 5.8). So, if you lime the soil now, more phosphorus will be released into the soil, making the problem worse!

Phosphorus excess will slowly correct itself but it can take years. How many depends on how high the levels are plus many interacting factors.

You could try to speed up the process by planting phosphorus-accumulating plants. Two that might be compatible with your daylilies would be clovers and lupines. Use them as ground covers or accents in the daylily beds. Harvest them as they mature (you'll probably want to let the lupines flower 😀) and replant. The idea is to "harvest phosphorus" along with those plants.

I think you had more results coming? I'll wait for those.

And for now I'm going to demur on suggesting a fertilizer. I have one in mind but I have to do some more research and calculations.

Pat

Just returned from the national, was just fresh back from a hybridizer seminar where the speaker spoke about low the PH of his soil was years ago and how he had added 20 tons of lime over the past 15? years, can't remember exactly the number of years.
So I suppose there are different things about different soils that may react differently to lime? I grew up with all the farmers around here adding lime to "correct" the soil PH.
So, maybe PH is not nearly as important for daylilies as we have been told? Maybe that 6.4 to 6.6 range published everywhere is not really that important? I won't argue that, being I have never had a soil test done in my garden and the plants seem to grow fine.
What I do have in abundance in my garden and what I think Sheri has almost none of in her garden is organic matter. I noticed for some reason she does not mulch her daylilies. I attribute the addition of tons of organic matter to my garden for not having to use a lot of fertilizer and not having to water excessively and for the great plant growth I seem to get compared to other gardens around here.

Seedfork said: I grew up with all the farmers around here adding lime to "correct" the soil PH.
So, maybe PH is not nearly as important for daylilies as we have been told? Maybe that 6.4 to 6.6 range published everywhere is not really that important?

I know someone who added lime to their daylilies because the local farmers were applying lime to their fields. The liming caused a micronutrient deficiency in the daylilies which then had to be corrected with an application of sulfur to lower the pH again. Some farm crops need a higher pH than daylilies likely do. The range often given for daylilies is probably a generalization for other plants. The most plausible range for daylilies that I have seen is 5.5 to 6.5 by someone who actually did research on fertilizing daylilies although I don't know if that range was a result of the research. There are definitely daylilies that prefer an acidic soil. As the AHS FAQ says: "Daylilies can do well over a relatively wide soil pH range and adjustment of pH need only be considered if the plants appear to be doing poorly."

The soil pH preference/tolerance in daylilies appears to be cultivar specific. If the pH is too high you might see something like this, which resulted from a lime application that turned out to have pushed the pH too high for some cultivars but not others, note that the plant behind is a normal green:

https://daylilies.org/daylily-...

I actually had the above happen with some of my daylilies yet the tenant farmer who rents our land does sometimes apply lime to the fields for certain crops.

The reason I did not mulch my daylilys is I always heard to not let bought mulch get near
the plant.

In my one daylily bed the water runs downward and no cypress or other mulch is going to stay away from piling up against the greenery of the daylily
when it rains.

The organic matter composting I have no where to use a tiller here in that flower bed the way its laid out and stones around it...

and I am not physically able to do more than weed, hoe, water and fertilize once a year March lst ..with 10 10 10

in the past before I stopped using 10 10 1o and started using milorganite once a year in March..and did the copper sulfate spraying that one season I had daylilys that people who came to see them just were in awe of the foliage and the blooms.
Thats not being arrogant, its the truth..

I have never been in competition I try to stay humble. Smiles


Everyone that has seen the daylilys on the site here where I submitted to contests and to the photo sections..and that has been to my home ..

saw they were lush beautiful plants growing on tall scapes with perfect formed blooms

I do attribute the beautiful daylilys I had at my home from using the 10 10 10
once a year and afternoon filtered shade, lots of good well water, weeding them

and just
you may laugh but telling them daily how much I cared for them.

Farmers here do use Lime, my husband won awards for his farming..
That however was not for farming daylilys ..it was for growing peanuts
or food crops.

I think Pat is right on ..what she is discovering...with the testing I had done.
Had I stayed with just well water, 10 10 10 fertilizer once a year march lst
and stayed with spraying them once a month with bravo or a different fungicide

perhaps the person who recommended a fungicide for roses

This would never have happened..a strange soil condition with stunted flower blooms ..and high zinc and copper

and whatever else Pat wants to post here

from my soil and plant testing I had done..at a lab recently