Ann, it is not about nativity but, as Sue just said (the environment which the plant or animal normally live or naturally lives). Such as marshes, aquatic, open sunny fields or shady forest etc.

flaflwrgrl said:

Kent, you can't just assume that everyone thinks the way you do just as you do not think the way I do. We must define it.

It doesn't really matter what I think, the various definitions of habitat are well established. The definition you are pushing for, "wherever something is living" is not one that a biologist would use when discussing a plant or animal (unless they were intentionally trying to derail a discussion. something I've unfortunately observed many times in my career, but that's another story for another forum).

flaflwrgrl said:Zuzu has already said she's getting lots of flower bed photos.

I didn't say that at all. I said: "Lately I've been seeing people add long shots of flower beds to the database under the "Habitat" category."

There have only been a few so far, and I think you and one other person are the only ones doing it. I think most people know what "habitat" means, so I don't see any need to call it the "natural habitat."

I like the idea of having it read 'Native Habitat'.

As in this photo of Sedum spathuliforlium growing on rocks in Oregon, it's natural habitat.

valleylynn said:I like the idea of having it read 'Native Habitat'.

As in this photo of Sedum spathuliforlium growing on rocks in Oregon, it's natural habitat.

Using the term "native" would open a whole other can of worms. Let's say someone post a picture of a plant they have seen growing in an area for their entire life years. They post it under native habitat, but the plant is not a native plant, but one from Asia. You wouldn't be able to say it was in it's native habitat. If you were going to add another word in front of 'habitat' it should be 'natural'. I think it should be left at habitat. It may seem easier to try and simplify, that to educate, but I think educating would be better. In a situation like what zuzu encountered, I would suggest the moderator move the photo to the proper category. Then explain to the submitter what a habitat photo is.

I agree with Jay on all points.

When adding "Habitat" as a gallery was proposed, we all knew and understood that it was being created to show a plant growing in its normal, natural and wild environment, as opposed to an artificial environment such as a garden, greenhouse or basement.

I see absolutely no reason to change the word because it is perfect. We don't need to add "Native" or anything (and Jay is right that the word Native opens up a different conversation). The word Habitat means exactly what we're looking for.

So, please let's continue to only use Habitat for the right reason. If you have a photo of a plant growing in a garden, use the gallery "Entire plant".

dave said:When adding "Habitat" as a gallery was proposed, we all knew and understood that it was being created to show a plant growing in its normal, natural and wild environment, as opposed to an artificial environment such as a garden, greenhouse or basement.

I'm confused ... isn't Ann's photo of the field of Phlox growing in a normal, natural and wild environment? It's not an artificial environment, i.e. flower bed, home garden etc. but rather a field ... so wouldn't it be considered a habitat?

Really, I'm not trying to cause dissent ... most of y'all know me and know that it doesn't take much to confuse this ole' gal sometimes. I'm just trying to get that particular database gallery entry straight in my brain. I do understand that native plants are usually endemic to certain regions of the world and we don't need a Native category because anyone can purchase plants native to one area and grow them in another but there are all sorts of habitats that man creates. Ann's photo is a field of flowers, growing naturally in that particular location/habitat.

I will be taking lots of photo's while traveling this summer and I want to place them in the correct database gallery without causing added work for moderators ... maybe I should just put them in the "Entire Plant" category to be on the safe side.

I would consider the phlox as habitat. They are naturalized and not being cultivated in a garden setting.

KentPfeiffer said:

It doesn't really matter what I think, the various definitions of habitat are well established. The definition you are pushing for, "wherever something is living" is not one that a biologist would use when discussing a plant or animal (unless they were intentionally trying to derail a discussion. something I've unfortunately observed many times in my career, but that's another story for another forum).

Please understand that I was not pushing for any particular definition. I was trying to make the point that this is confusing to some of us the way it stands now. I was in truth looking for further or more clear definition. And I am STILL confused. Like Lin said about the photo I posted of the phlox as an example. Kent, you declined that photo as habitat view & I don't understand why. I need clarification. It will never be my intent to submit photos that are incorrect for the category sooooo......?????

It appeared to be picture of your yard. If I was mistaken, please resubmit it. Just as an aside, I have a couple hundred species of native plants growing in my yard. My yard isn't habitat for any of those species, some are prairie plants, some are native to oak woodlands, a few naturally grow in wetlands. They are sort of captive populations, like tigers at the zoo.

No, the "yard" is not a yard at all --- it is 6 acres & believe me I certainly don't possess the physical or monetary ability to turn it all into yard. And honestly I wouldn't if I could. My fondest dreams are for the majority of the property to be wildflowers & of those as many natives to this area as I can get. It's 7 rows of pecan trees from the house down to where that photo was taken by the front fence. I understand you had no way of knowing that Kent. And that sort of presents an issue too b/c if I get back far enough from the phlox to shoot a photo which clearly defines that as not being a yard then the phlox become lost & are not then prominent enough in the photo. And then you may decline it for that reason. So what to do? I don't know. You tell me.

I agree that habitat is basically in the wild (non-cultivated environment).
But what about dandelion? It's at home everywhere.

flaflwrgrl said:No, the "yard" is not a yard at all --- it is 6 acres & believe me I certainly don't possess the physical or monetary ability to turn it all into yard. And honestly I wouldn't if I could. My fondest dreams are for the majority of the property to be wildflowers & of those as many natives to this area as I can get. It's 7 rows of pecan trees from the house down to where that photo was taken by the front fence. I understand you had no way of knowing that Kent. And that sort of presents an issue too b/c if I get back far enough from the phlox to shoot a photo which clearly defines that as not being a yard then the phlox become lost & are not then prominent enough in the photo. And then you may decline it for that reason. So what to do? I don't know. You tell me.

Perhaps the caption could help to define an image for placement? I often use the words "found plant" or "growing wild" to clarify.

I did put a caption on it --- I can't recall now what the exact words I used were but it was something to the effect of:
This plant receives no watering except rain

I think from now on I should say:
Growing wild, receiving no care from humans.

flaflwrgrl said:No, the "yard" is not a yard at all --- it is 6 acres & believe me I certainly don't possess the physical or monetary ability to turn it all into yard. And honestly I wouldn't if I could. My fondest dreams are for the majority of the property to be wildflowers & of those as many natives to this area as I can get. It's 7 rows of pecan trees from the house down to where that photo was taken by the front fence. I understand you had no way of knowing that Kent. And that sort of presents an issue too b/c if I get back far enough from the phlox to shoot a photo which clearly defines that as not being a yard then the phlox become lost & are not then prominent enough in the photo. And then you may decline it for that reason. So what to do? I don't know. You tell me.

It appears to be mowed at least occassionaly, though, correct? It appears to be closer to what would be called "yard" than "habitat". Or, is vegetation naturally that short in Florida? Here is a picture that I hope will illustrate the point:



This is a portion of my yard. It's composed of native (more or less) plants, some I planted, some that colonized the area from the prairie across the road, and almost all have spread around on their own over the years. It appears far more "natural" than the pictures you submitted in the Habitat Gallery.

But it is neither natural nor habitat, it's just a part of my yard (an unkempt part of my yard according to a few neighbors, but hey, some people like it).

flaflwrgrl said:So what to do? I don't know. You tell me.

My advice would be to not take it personally when your images are declined. It's not like it actually harms you in any meaningful way.

KentPfeiffer said:

My advice would be to not take it personally when your images are declined. It's not like it actually harms you in any meaningful way.

I do not take it personally. Not at all! I just needed to know why. That way I can get it right the next time.

KentPfeiffer said:

It appears to be mowed at least occassionaly, though, correct? It appears to be closer to what would be called "yard" than "habitat". Or, is vegetation naturally that short in Florida? Here is a picture that I hope will illustrate the point:

• Tennessee Coneflower (Echinacea tennesseensis)
• Uploaded by KentPfeiffer

This is a portion of my yard. It's composed of native (more or less) plants, some I planted, some that colonized the area from the prairie across the road, and almost all have spread around on their own over the years. It appears far more "natural" than the pictures you submitted in the Habitat Gallery.

But it is neither natural nor habitat, it's just a part of my yard (an unkempt part of my yard according to a few neighbors, but hey, some people like it).

I think it's quite beautiful Kent! Right up my alley. And it's environmentally friendly which makes it even better.

If you call mowing occasionally as having been mowed once a year then yes, it has been mowed once a year in September. It is necessary in order to harvest the pecans & now that we own it, any portion that is not directly under the "drop" of the pecans will not get mowed even that once. But this is Fl. Kent & grass takes a beating here. It is not what you are used to. The heat & sun beat it to death & there is often times drought or lack of rain. We are much like parts of Texas. When I have trouble ID'ing a plant, I go look at what grows in Texas & usually find what I'm looking for.
AND the grass you are looking at in the photo is not normal turfgrass. It's just old scrub grass that grows here --- as wild as the phlox --- no one planted it. It survives what Ma Nature dishes out whereas little else "grass" will. So no, it is not a yard by any means. It is a habitat.

I would consider the phlox as habitat. I do not consider an occasional mowing as a disqualifier. I photograph a lot of wildflowers that get mowed.