Vegetables and Fruit forum: i need help which vegetables to plant near each other please..

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Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
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newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 2:19 PM CST
Hi, i am a newbie in gardening and i have a list of vegetables i want to plant this August.If you could please tell me which of them can go side by side, and the distance from each when planting. I have a semi prepared 8 by 8 foot garden. THe vegetables i want to plant are as follows:Beans, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, asian greens(bokchoi),corn,eggplant, garlic,pumpkin or squash,kale, lettuce,okra,parsley, sugarsnap peas,green/red peppers, california peppers, jalapeno peppers,spinach,watermelon. I know this looks like a lot of variety but i will only plant a few of each,(just for my family consumption. I plan to buy seedlings to transplant for i have no seeds sown indoors.. Thank you very much..I am so overwhelmed with so much things i need to learn before i can actually plant the veggies i want to eat and i found your website for garden planting calendar, and it is a big help knowing what to transplant when. Thank you very, very much.. Please do an article on how much water each plant needs also(and if you could explain the difference between moist and average etc..) Again, thank you very much and more power!!

Thumb of 2013-07-30/visitor/908a66
liza
[Last edited by dave - Jul 30, 2013 2:21 PM (+)]
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Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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Newyorkrita
Jul 30, 2013 2:52 PM CST
Welcome! Welcome! Welcome to ATP and the wonderful world of Gardening. Welcome!

Growing veggies is very rewarding and nothing beats the taste of fresh from the garden.

That said, first off 8 by 8 is not nearly enough room for your list of everything you would like to grow. Watermelon alone would take up the entire 8 by 8 space. Same with Pumpkins. Okra is a large plant and squash takes up lots of room also. Sorry, I don't know much about growing corn but I do know you need enough of it to guarantee good pollination.

I see a good beginning in your picture but either decide on a larger garden or trim down your list. You could probably do the beans, all the greens, peas, some eggplant and peppers. Cabbage grows large and even broccoli and cauliflower should be spaced 18 inches apart.

Hopefully some of the other veggie growing members of ATP will see your post soon also and chime in.
[Last edited by Newyorkrita - Jul 30, 2013 3:00 PM (+)]
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Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Image
newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 3:42 PM CST
Hi Newyorkrita, thank you so much for the welcome and the quick reply.. Smiling I'm really so glad i found this site. i was getting ready to just declare myself a hopeless gardener until i stumbled on a site that helped me understand full sun , partial sun and full shade difference, so now i kinda have an idea which part of the garden to plant which vegetable need more sun, etc.Altho, i've been observing my semi prepared garden and it seemed like the whole area gets full sun the whole day. But i am working on analyzing where to put trellises to help shade the ones that only require 3 or 4 hours of sunlight. Then i came across this site where i printed the garden planting calendar, so now i klnow what veggies i could plant in my area this August.. I am still a little bit confused with the zone.. i think fresno ca is zone 9b. Confused And based on your reply, i learned another thing.. i can't plant them all.. lol!! So i will narrow down my list to bokchoi,, spinach, kale, broccoli, cauliflower. cabbage, eggplants, green/red bellpeppers, jalapeno peppers, california peppers. My husband is going to build me trellis also for the sugarsnap peas and the bittermelon, and beans. Maybe i will just have 2 heads of each of the large plants so i have space for others., If the herbs i'm wanting to plant has no space, i think i can plant them in another area in my backyard, or maybe group them in a big pot.. Thank you very much again.. I tip my hat to you.
liza
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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Newyorkrita
Jul 30, 2013 3:55 PM CST
Liza, I was also just thinking that I don't know where you can get seedlings in the fall as most nurseries only stock on the spring. Even for spring planting some veggies are so really really easy from seed that it is so better alternative to costly plants. Beans, peas, cucumbers, squash, any type of melon and most greens like your spinach and Bok Choi are very, very easy from seed.

Are you planning on bush beans or pole beans? Bush beans stay short (about 2 feet or so) but pole beans climb and need some sort of support. In fact peas need something to grab onto also.

You might want to put up a trellis at the back of the garden for those climbing vegetables. Or up near your fence that I see in the background.

Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
Jul 30, 2013 3:55 PM CST
Liza - I found this image and found it to be very helpful. :)

Thumb of 2013-07-30/Skiekitty/1115ed

Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Image
Newyorkrita
Jul 30, 2013 4:00 PM CST
I am a bit confused about the comment about 3 or 4 hours of sunlight. Veggies do best in full sun, 3 hours is not much. Not enough. However I have never gardened in California so some shade might be beneficial.
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Image
newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 5:12 PM CST
Newyorkrita said:Liza, I was also just thinking that I don't know where you can get seedlings in the fall as most nurseries only stock on the spring. Even for spring planting some veggies are so really really easy from seed that it is so better alternative to costly plants. Beans, peas, cucumbers, squash, any type of melon and most greens like your spinach and Bok Choi are very, very easy from seed.

Are you planning on bush beans or pole beans? Bush beans stay short (about 2 feet or so) but pole beans climb and need some sort of support. In fact peas need something to grab onto also.

You might want to put up a trellis at the back of the garden for those climbing vegetables. Or up near your fence that I see in the background.



First of all, i'm sorry if this is not the proper way or place to reply, i just click on quote Sticking tongue out But anyway, i think i know one or 2 people that can give me seedlings.. And i am thinking of sugarsnap peas in a trellis. But you just gave me another tip there, Thanks again Smiling It's probably too late to sow indoors in time to transplant for some of the veggies i want to plant. I guess this year for me will be more or less studying and learning than planting and harvesting.. Shrug!
liza
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Image
newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 5:15 PM CST
Skiekitty said:Liza - I found this image and found it to be very helpful. :)

Thumb of 2013-07-30/Skiekitty/1115ed



Hi Skiekitty, thanks so much for this.. i saved it and will print it.. it will give me knowledge for my first time gardening experience..I love this site.. Lovey dubby
liza
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Image
newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 5:18 PM CST
Newyorkrita said:I am a bit confused about the comment about 3 or 4 hours of sunlight. Veggies do best in full sun, 3 hours is not much. Not enough. However I have never gardened in California so some shade might be beneficial.


Well, i came across this site..:Proven Winners.. I think this is where i read their list of veggies and how much sun each requires or something, cause i typed in vegetables that require less sun i think or full sun and something came up and i just kept on reading and clicking and reading and so i don't really remember which said what.. lol!! i'm obviously desperate in learning..
liza
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Image
Newyorkrita
Jul 30, 2013 5:34 PM CST
Liza, there is no right or wrong way to reply. whatever works for you is good. And you have to start and you will learn as you go. Next spring you will know much more than you already do now.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
Image
Skiekitty
Jul 30, 2013 5:57 PM CST
Liza - also, another thing. As long as the plant doesn't die, you're doing it right! Some people grow things by "the book" Other people grow things unorthodoxly. But, as long as you're happy with the plants and (in your case) produces nommies to eat, then, whatever you're doing must be right!!

Oh, and Welcome! Welcome! Welcome! Welcome!

I remembered reading this article here by a fellow ATP/Cubit'er - Sharon. She's got the wisdom of the ages locked up in that pretty head of hers. And I love her articles!

http://garden.org/ideas/view/Sharon/1129/I-Will-Plant-Veggie...
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
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RickCorey
Jul 30, 2013 6:20 PM CST
Hi, Liza, and welcome!

>> i was getting ready to just declare myself a hopeless gardener

Oh, no! It would be premature to say that until you've been trying for 3 or more years, and still had little success. Not knowing what to do, feeling overwhelmed, and killing lots of plants IS what gardening is for the first year or two!

P.S. If you can find a nearby neighbor who gardens, you can learn from her. If she thinks a certain plant is "easy to grow", do what she does. If she thinks something is "hard to grow", look for advice from someone else!

P.S. ATP has a member map, which lets you find nearby people, say if you hope to swap seedlings or produce some year. In this case, at this time, Fresno, just Kelli.
http://garden.org/users/memberlist/map.php

But there is a regional forum dedicated to (southern) Pacific Coast Gardening:
http://garden.org/forums/view/pacificcoast/
They might be a good resource for difficult things and more-exact, optimum dates for your region.


>> fresno ca is zone 9b

Well, that only means that the average minimum temperature in mid-winter is around 30 F. You can grow almost any perennial plant that isn't a total tropical fuss-budget, and it won't die from winter cold. (But it might die from drought or heat in the summer - the USDA Hardiness Zone doesn't say anything about summer climate).

Check out the Sunset Climate Zones for a more useful climate description of your area. It looks to me like you're on the border of Sunset Zone 8 and 9:
http://www.sunset.com/garden/climate-zones/climate-zone-cent...

Sunset ZONE 8: Cold-air basins of California’s Central Valley f[u]floor] - no citrus
Sunset ZONE 9

{Sunset} "Zones 8 and 9 have the following features in common: summer daytime temperatures are high, sunshine is almost constant during the growing season, and growing seasons are long. Deciduous fruits and vegetables of nearly every kind thrive in these long, hot summers; "
also:
" Plants that like summer coolness and humidity demand some fussing; careful gardeners accommodate them by providing filtered shade from tall trees and plenty of moisture.":

It sounds to me as if you may have to water the bed.
Perhaps you're like the hot parts of Texas: some plants that "need full sun" in every other region, might just benefit from some mid-summer shade where you live!

Tomatoes stop bearing fruit around 90 F and higher - maybe peppers are similar?

Some other climate considerations are:

- when to expect frost that is hard enough to bother a particular crop. You might be able to grow some kinds of lettuce and Bok Choy right through most of your winter by giving them a little cover before each hard frost hits. Have you considered Tatsoi in addition to lettuce and Bok Choy? It's very cold-hardy.

- the days between your last spring frost and first fall frost are your "growing season" - how long is it? A crop's seed packet should list "Days To Maturity". Your growing season has to be longer than that DTM! It sounds like you have a long, hot summer and no worries about DTM.

- heat loving plants like beans, peppers, eggplant, tomatoes, will want a certain number of days and nights ABOVE the minimum temperatures that they like. I bet you will have a lot of choices down there: in the Pacific NorthWest, summers are barely warm enough for tomatoes.

(I don't know much about vegetables overheating in the summer.)

>> So i will narrow down my list to bokchoi,, spinach, kale, broccoli, cauliflower. cabbage, eggplants, green/red bellpeppers, jalapeno peppers, california peppers.

Here's my thought, but seed packets and local gardening neighbors may contradict me:

- - - - Cool-weather crops for spring and fall and maybe some of the winter:
bokchoi,, spinach, kale, broccoli, peas
lettuce, tatsoi
cauliflower (?). cabbage (?),


- - - - Summer heat-lovers:
BEANS, eggplants, green/red bell peppers, jalapeno peppers, california peppers.
cauliflower. cabbage,

If part of your summer is too hot, too dry or too sunny, you could use hoops and drape some shade cloth over some rows! Then, if you decide that you want spinach, lettuce or Bok Choy all winter, plant some fall and late fall crops, then drape clear plastic over them before it gets very cold.

Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
Image
RickCorey
Jul 30, 2013 6:24 PM CST
Starting out with everything at once may indeed be very challenging! If you aren't going to be too disappointed by learning a whole lot your first year, more power to you! Go for it all at once!

But since garden "learning" usually involves some lost crops, you might prefer to learn a little bit each of the next 2-3 years, and start out with just a few crops your first year. Maybe Improve your soil and find techniques that work for you, before starting 20 different crops all at the same time, for the first time ever on all 20.

When I was disappointed by having 80% of five trays of seedlings all die on me, a more experienced gardener assured me that every gardener has to kill a certain number of plants, and it only means that you are still learning ... and we ALL are still learning, even after decades of growing.

Or maybe you're smart: buy a few cells of whatever is in season, stick them in the ground and see what survives. You'll learn fast which ones need something they aren't getting, and specific advice will stick when a dozen plants go from yellow and wilting to green and booming overnight!

If advice varies, remember that everyone does it "their way", and most ways can be made to work in one climate or another. What is easy for one person may be hard for another.

Pick whatever method sounds easiest to you, try that, and if it works, keep doing that. Only pursue the harder methods if you need to.

>> semi prepared 8 by 8 foot garden.

Opinions differ, but if your soil is not-very-good, it might be a candidate for "rows" instead of "intensive" or "square foot" spacing. If the soil is not fertile, roots might want want the extra space to wander through, in order to find enough nutrients and water for the plants. But then you have to weed the rows that you walk in!

Consider re-making your bed from 8x8 into 4x16 or even 3x20'. Then you won't need to walk on the soil as you sow, weed and harvest. Walking on the soil compresses it and squeezes out the air spaces that kept it well-ventilated and well-draining.

Or leave it as a rectangle, but run 1-2 paths through it that divide it into 2-3 narrow beds each 3-4 feet wide. Then yo8 canr each the whole bed while never walking on the soil.

Tall things and anything that grows on a pole or trellis or string should go along the North edge so it's shadow does not shade other plants much.

Advanced gardeners plan so that early spring rows like lettuce, broccoli and Bok Choy are harvested and pulled out in time for summer crops like beans, eggplant, peppers (no tomatoes?) and maybe okra. And they think about what crops will be done in time to be pulled and make room for a Summer/Fall crop of Chinese cabbage, Bok Choy,or whatever.


It is smart to plant together things that want the same amount of water and fertilizer.

>> Please do an article on how much water each plant needs also

Too much work for me! All I know is that Brassicas like Bok Choy, broccoli and cabage like "uniformly moist" soil. I THINK that lettuce and all kinds of peas like the same thing.

I'm not very experienced yet, but here's my rule of thumb:

If you stick a finger down 2 inches into the soil, that should still be slightly moist when you water again, for plants that want constant water. A drought-tolerant plant that like well-drained soil might go dry as deep as 3-4 inches between waterings, but I'm sissy and try not to reach that point. .
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
Image
RickCorey
Jul 30, 2013 6:35 PM CST
I love narrow raised beds so I only have to improve the soil in a small area. Then the soil is so rich that I can plant veggies close enough to crowd out weeds.

Your soil improvement might be an ongoing project for a few years, but eventually you'll get it so rich and aerated and well-draining that all it needs is compost 1-2 times per year, and some mulch. Until then, tilling and even (gasp) some chemical fertilizer might not be bad things. But many organic advocates do fine with fish and seaweed emulsions and lots of compost.

I dig up the soil in pathways that surround each bed and shovel it back on top of the bed, screening out rocks and roots. I mix in compost, sand, grit, compost, bark fines, compost, manure and compost at the same time. You can't add too much compost when starting a bed!

I dig down as far as 12 or more inches, and build the bed up to a total of 16" (my walls are made of paving stones from 8" to 16" tall). For me, drainage is a problem and soil is pure clay, so root-zone depth is a good thing. Also, I can't squat or kneel and even bending is tiring, so by lowering the pathway and raising the soil surface, I put my hands that much closer to ground level.

The pathways can be around 18" wide, or wider if you want a wheel barrow, or narrower if you are steady on your feet and space is at a premium.

Other people will say "What a waste of energy!" and just layer 12" of compost and compost-makings on top of whatever soil they have, without even turning it up with pick and garden fork! The they grow for a few years in the compost layer, while worms and watering mellows the underlying soil FOR them.

I guess I just like digging and turning the clay and dirt and rocks until they become soil.. Maybe there are some mole genes in my family history.




Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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abhege
Jul 30, 2013 7:54 PM CST
Welcome! now Rick, don't scare her off with too much information! She's already overwhelmed! Hilarious! Hilarious!
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
Image
RickCorey
Jul 30, 2013 8:30 PM CST
>> too much information!

TMI is my worst sin. Unless you know me well and have incriminating photographs. Even then, my lawyers thinks he get those reversed on appeal.

Probably my best advice was to buy some seedlings when they're in season, stick them in the ground and see what happens. Whatever flourishes, keep doing that!

Also: more compost! Almost any soil can be improved by More Compost.

Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Image
newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 8:58 PM CST
Newyorkrita said:Liza, there is no right or wrong way to reply. whatever works for you is good. And you have to start and you will learn as you go. Next spring you will know much more than you already do now.


Thanks again Smiling i see that i have a lot to read now.. but i think i am making progress because the more i read, the shorter of list of plants i have to possibly be able to plant gets.. Sticking tongue out
liza
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Image
newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 9:03 PM CST
Skiekitty said:Liza - also, another thing. As long as the plant doesn't die, you're doing it right! Some people grow things by "the book" Other people grow things unorthodoxly. But, as long as you're happy with the plants and (in your case) produces nommies to eat, then, whatever you're doing must be right!!

Oh, and Welcome! Welcome! Welcome! Welcome!

I remembered reading this article here by a fellow ATP/Cubit'er - Sharon. She's got the wisdom of the ages locked up in that pretty head of hers. And I love her articles!

http://garden.org/ideas/view/Sharon/1129/I-Will-Plant-Veggie...


Thanks Skiekitty, but that's what i am scared of.., if the plant dies on me.. But like most of what i've read so far, plants dying on you is a part of learning to be a gardener..And thanks for the link,, and the welcome Smiling
liza
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Image
abhege
Jul 30, 2013 9:06 PM CST
If none of your plants die they must be artificial! Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing

Relax and enjoy!
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Image
newbiemomgardener
Jul 30, 2013 9:09 PM CST
RickCorey said:I love narrow raised beds so I only have to improve the soil in a small area. Then the soil is so rich that I can plant veggies close enough to crowd out weeds.

Your soil improvement might be an ongoing project for a few years, but eventually you'll get it so rich and aerated and well-draining that all it needs is compost 1-2 times per year, and some mulch. Until then, tilling and even (gasp) some chemical fertilizer might not be bad things. But many organic advocates do fine with fish and seaweed emulsions and lots of compost.

I dig up the soil in pathways that surround each bed and shovel it back on top of the bed, screening out rocks and roots. I mix in compost, sand, grit, compost, bark fines, compost, manure and compost at the same time. You can't add too much compost when starting a bed!

I dig down as far as 12 or more inches, and build the bed up to a total of 16" (my walls are made of paving stones from 8" to 16" tall). For me, drainage is a problem and soil is pure clay, so root-zone depth is a good thing. Also, I can't squat or kneel and even bending is tiring, so by lowering the pathway and raising the soil surface, I put my hands that much closer to ground level.

The pathways can be around 18" wide, or wider if you want a wheel barrow, or narrower if you are steady on your feet and space is at a premium.

Other people will say "What a waste of energy!" and just layer 12" of compost and compost-makings on top of whatever soil they have, without even turning it up with pick and garden fork! The they grow for a few years in the compost layer, while worms and watering mellows the underlying soil FOR them.

I guess I just like digging and turning the clay and dirt and rocks until they become soil.. Maybe there are some mole genes in my family history.





Hi Rickcorey, thank you for the welcome and for all the information you gave me. I have not read everything yet but i will make sure i read everything tomorrow.. Based on the calendar planting guide for fresno ca., i still have a few days i can use for studying before i start planting. By then maybe i already know exactly what to plant etc.. Smiling
liza

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