Many years ago I worked for the College of Forestry at the Univ. of Wash. Monsanto funded a study of 2,4-D for use as weed control for replanted evergreens following clear-cutting. They soaked circles of cardboard in the chemical and placed those around the seedlings. The control group was cardboard with no chemical. As it turned out, there was no significant difference between the two control groups.

2,4-D wasn't the really bad part of Agent Orange. The defoliant 2,4,5-T. was worse.

And civilian 2,4,5-T wasn't as bad as the batches made by Monsanto for the military, because they used a cheaper, faster process that produced more of the known contaminant TCDD.

TCDD is the real villain of the piece, after the DoD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

Agent Orange was an herbicide and defoliant.
It was a 50:50 mixture of 2,4-D and the defoliant 2,4,5-T.

Production of 2,4,5-T by Monsanto sometimes had accidental overheating, resulting in increased contamination with the dioxin compound 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD), an extremely toxic, carcinogenic, persistent synthetic auxin. TCDD does cause birth defects in mice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2...

This should remind us that a chemical can be tested "safe" in a lab, but sloppy manufacture can cause it to contain dangerous or even unknown side-products.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

The following reminds me that most harm caused by toxic chemcials is caused by their being used improperly and in excess:

12% of South Vietnam was sprayed with a total of 20 million gallons.
The average concentration was 13 times the recommended USDA rate for domestic use.
"In 1965, 42 percent of all herbicide spraying was dedicated to food crops."

The following reminds me of the horror of chemical warfare:

"Furthermore, Dr. James R. Clary (a former government scientist with the Chemical Weapons Branch, BW/CW Division ) has stated that "When we (military scientists) initiated the herbicide program in the 1960’s, we were aware of the potential for damage due to dioxin contamination in the herbicide. We were even aware that the ‘military' formulation had a higher dioxin concentration than the ‘civilian’ version due to the lower cost and speed of manufacture. However, because the material was to be used on the ‘enemy’, none of us were overly concerned."[43][44]"


• ^ "Chemical companies, US authorities knew dangers of Agent Orange" by Jon Dillingham; August 10, 2009 (accessed 2013-07-21)
http://thewe.cc/weplanet/asia/...


• REPORT TO SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS ON THE ASSOCIATION BETWEEN ADVERSE HEALTH EFFECTS AND EXPOSURE TO AGENT ORANGE as Reported by Special Assistant Admiral E.R. Zumwalt, Jr., May 5, 1990 (accessed: 2013-07-21)
http://www.bluewaternavy.org/n...

Scary stuff, thanks for the info.

Amen. I mostly wanted to exonerate 2,4-D. It's not as safe as Cherry Kool-Aide, but neither is it as dangerous as plutonium.

I think it is horror stories like this, plus the domestic excesses of the 40s and 50s before the risks were well and widely understood that has given agricultural chemicals such a "bad rep".

Like all technology starting with fire: a good servant but a bad master.
Useful and potentially safe, but easily abused.

Like any power tool, restraint and understanding are needed.
When haste, greed or war lust overcomes common sense and decency, they can easily cause great harm.

Due primarily to so much conflicting information and my own ignorance of the chemicals involved, I long ago chose to simply not include manufactured chemicals in my gardening universe. No judgment.

Bonehead said:Many years ago I worked for the College of Forestry at the Univ. of Wash. Monsanto funded a study of 2,4-D for use as weed control for replanted evergreens following clear-cutting. They soaked circles of cardboard in the chemical and placed those around the seedlings. The control group was cardboard with no chemical. As it turned out, there was no significant difference between the two control groups.

Amazing!!!

RickCorey said:2,4-D wasn't the really bad part of Agent Orange. The defoliant 2,4,5-T. was worse.

And civilian 2,4,5-T wasn't as bad as the batches made by Monsanto for the military, because they used a cheaper, faster process that produced more of the known contaminant TCDD.

TCDD is the real villain of the piece, after the DoD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

Agent Orange was an herbicide and defoliant.
It was a 50:50 mixture of 2,4-D and the defoliant 2,4,5-T.

Production of 2,4,5-T by Monsanto sometimes had accidental overheating, resulting in increased contamination with the dioxin compound 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD), an extremely toxic, carcinogenic, persistent synthetic auxin. TCDD does cause birth defects in mice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2...

This should remind us that a chemical can be tested "safe" in a lab, but sloppy manufacture can cause it to contain dangerous or even unknown side-products.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

The following reminds me that most harm caused by toxic chemcials is caused by their being used improperly and in excess:

12% of South Vietnam was sprayed with a total of 20 million gallons.
The average concentration was 13 times the recommended USDA rate for domestic use.
"In 1965, 42 percent of all herbicide spraying was dedicated to food crops."

The following reminds me of the horror of chemical warfare:

"Furthermore, Dr. James R. Clary (a former government scientist with the Chemical Weapons Branch, BW/CW Division ) has stated that "When we (military scientists) initiated the herbicide program in the 1960’s, we were aware of the potential for damage due to dioxin contamination in the herbicide. We were even aware that the ‘military' formulation had a higher dioxin concentration than the ‘civilian’ version due to the lower cost and speed of manufacture. However, because the material was to be used on the ‘enemy’, none of us were overly concerned."[43][44]"


• ^ "Chemical companies, US authorities knew dangers of Agent Orange" by Jon Dillingham; August 10, 2009 (accessed 2013-07-21)
http://thewe.cc/weplanet/asia/...


• REPORT TO SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS ON THE ASSOCIATION BETWEEN ADVERSE HEALTH EFFECTS AND EXPOSURE TO AGENT ORANGE as Reported by Special Assistant Admiral E.R. Zumwalt, Jr., May 5, 1990 (accessed: 2013-07-21)
http://www.bluewaternavy.org/n...

Thank you for the insight Corey, This is very sad to read about.

Thanks, I was shocked three times. Once by the sheer amount of poison they sprayed, including on food crops. Again by the fact that part of their INTENT was to drive peasants BY HUNGER from villages to cities where they could be controlled.

Then by the statement:
"However, because the material was to be used on the ‘enemy’, none of us were overly concerned."[

How cynical is that, from the same group that coined "Win their hearts and minds"?

Bad as some chemicals are, they aren't the problem, people are the problem.

Back then, it was mostly cold warriors who were quick to make "hard decisions" that killed OTHER people. Now it's politicians quick to impoverish everyone except the very few, very rich who fund their campaigns.

(ain't it the truth!)

I was very disturbed by the same statements as you.

Since we have had lots and lots of rain in just few days, I decided to try the suggestions of 'greene, AnnC and CindiKC' above to help rid my hopeless daylily bed of grass, grass and more grass. The soil was very wet. I was able to pull handfuls of grass, including long roots. The north end of the 20' bed is now clear of grass and I am amazed at how easy the job has been so far. When my body recovers a bit, I look forward to tackling the other end of the bed.

I had virtually given up on this bed and had begun to give away clumps of day lilies to friends. Now, thanks to ATP friends, I will get to see the beautiful day lilies again next year!

I love this place!!!!!!

louise said: I'm thinking of seriously just , with a shovel, taking each clump out of the bed and placing (perhaps on a large tarp) in the shade. Then, the bed can be tilled up deeply, more easily clear of grass, fertilized, amended. Then move the lilies back into the nice rich clean bed where it can be much more easily maintained. I have about eleven different ones
and would be sad to lose any of them.

This would be my approach.

>> taking each clump out of the bed and placing (perhaps on a large tarp) in the shade.
...
>> Then move the lilies back into the nice rich clean bed

This reminded me of something I read in a garden book from the 1940s or 1950s. I Googled "heeling in plants" and I was pretty close. I think classic "heeling in" is done to bare-root trees or bushes to hold them for a winter or a summer, when a permanent site is not available.)

If you need a few days to dig up that whole bed, screen out grass roots, and rejuvenate it, the daylilies might appreciate it if the roots were somewhat protected by heeling in (with or without a tarp, but surely with shade).

The tarp were laid down over a shallow trench and the excavated soil, then the daylilies laid down at an angle, tops resting on the tarp over the excavated soil and roots on the tarp in the trench. Then the roots could be loosely covered with some light and easily wetted mix and kept damp.

But it would only be worth digging the trench if re-doing the whole bed were going to take a few days.

(Or if you needed to uproot all the grass where that trench was, anyway. Or if you wanted to widen the bed by the width of that trench.)

Rick, thanks for the suggestions. As I was reading several posts a few days ago, someone told about how they
handled their grass problem in their daylily bed. They said to flood the entire bed with lots and lots of water, wait
a little while and then the grass pulls up easily. We had a week or more of heavy rain and I thought I would try what
I had read about. To my surprise, the bermuda grass came out very easily by the hand fulls and long pieces, roots
and all. I can't tell you how happy I was and so surprised. I have thinned out the plants in the last couple of months
by giving entire clumps of plants (that I had multiples of) to three or four friends. The remaining clumps need dividing
but now there is room in the bed to do that.
Thanks to ATP friends for helping me with this problem. I need to tackle my iris bed now that new plants are forming.
I've been sharing them also with friends to thin out the bed which has been there for about six years.

Louise

Good job, Louise!

I LOVE pulling weeds when the ground is saturated! My favorite way to weed is with a hose in one hand and a sharp tool in the other. One thing to remember, if you are pulling up bermuda grass roots, is that those roots have sharp points, and if my gloves are wet, those sharp points go right through. I have to use the leather gloves, and then they dry stiff, but at least the roots are gone. If daylilies are really soggy, it's easier to divide the clumps, too. I put really stubborn clumps in a bucket overnight before I attack them.
Louise, I let some of my iris go 6 years too, and it took forever to get all those individual rhizomes replanted. Next year, I am definitely going to write the name and color on the leaves so I can double check and sell, trade or give them away! It was crazy dividing in the fall when I was rushed and couldn't find tags.
Don't forget to follow the weeding with a good thick layer of mulch, compost, or both!

Agreed!!!! Gardeners are the happiest people in the world!!!!
It's a little early, but get ready for the Merry Christmas that's headed our way!

LM