Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum: Sold as Sempervivum 'Green Gables' = Rosularia alpestris

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Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Database Moderator
Seller of Garden Stuff I sent a postcard to Randy! Sempervivums Sedums Region: Wisconsin Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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goldfinch4
Sep 3, 2013 3:18 AM CST

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goldfinch4 said:Love this one. Unique shape, beautiful soft green all year, and a bonus of a flower this late in the year. It was sent to me as 'Green Gables', but it doesn't look like the pictures of Green Gables in the database.....Maybe because it was new this year....
Thumb of 2012-10-22/goldfinch4/de6e18 Thumb of 2012-10-22/goldfinch4/994fba


Lynn had asked me how this one was doing. Because it's so unusual I thought I'd start a thread about it so we can follow it easier. Actually it's funny you should ask about this one Lynn, as I just had a conversation with @sandnsea2 about it last week.

Here are some recent pictures.

Thumb of 2013-09-03/goldfinch4/c782b3 Thumb of 2013-09-03/goldfinch4/d8e70d
Thumb of 2013-09-03/goldfinch4/0325d9 Thumb of 2013-09-03/goldfinch4/9f34c9

It continues with the strange form. I had received it from sandnsea2 in 2012 so asked if hers also looked so unusual. (I actually think it looks like a jovi heuffelli cross pollinated with a sempervivum!) She got it from Youngs and said she contacted them once with a photo to be sure the ID was correct and they said it was how it should be. Sounds like Janice's out grew that form as it got older so I'm curious to see how this one will do since in it's second year it remains strange. All the rosettes have this odd form.

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[Last edited by goldfinch4 - Sep 3, 2013 3:29 AM (+)]
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Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
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sandnsea2
Sep 3, 2013 6:34 AM CST
I agree with you, Chris, it definitely looks to be part Jovi and that is what I asked Youngs, if perhaps they had a mixup, which they assured me was not the case.
However.........

Based on what I see on Sempervivum Liste site and our database photos, this does not look to be Green Gables.
****Note the difference in the flower color on Liste site.
http://sempervivum-liste.de/Sempervivum/Green%20Gables

(However, looking at the photo on the Young's website, yours looks exactly like their Green Gables, which does not look correct.)

Mine now looks like this, which still does not look like it should, so I think mistakes were made at Youngs, and we should label it a NOID.
Thumb of 2013-09-03/sandnsea2/366427

[Last edited by sandnsea2 - Sep 3, 2013 6:57 AM (+)]
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Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
Daylilies Roses Orchids Miniature Gardening Lilies Irises
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sandnsea2
Sep 3, 2013 6:49 AM CST
Here is another photo of Green Gables from a UK nursery Perhills

http://www.perhillplants.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=prod...

and the Youngs plant is also very different from that offered on the Squaw Mountain website, as well.

http://squawmountaingardens.com/
[Last edited by sandnsea2 - Sep 3, 2013 8:34 AM (+)]
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Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 3, 2013 8:15 AM CST

Moderator

The bloom is not correct either. Here is Green Gables on another reputable site. There is a photo of the bloom at the bottom of the page for Green Gables bloom.
It doesn't look like a heuffelii cross to me, because of the blooms, and it still produces offsets on stolons.
[Last edited by valleylynn - Jul 1, 2014 6:40 AM (+)]
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Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 3, 2013 8:21 AM CST

Moderator

Chris I would love to see a photo of the dried seed head, when it finishes blooming.
Are you going to keep the seed, if it is viable?

We should have @JungleShadows , Kevin look at these photos and see what he thinks.
Name: Bev
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan Garden Ideas: Master Level Photo Contest Winner: 2014
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webesemps
Sep 3, 2013 10:05 AM CST
valleylynn said: I wonder if it is a sport of Green Gables?


What does sport mean?

and would green gable be a possible candidate for our category of fuzzy? or is it more velvet and not fuzzy?
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 3, 2013 10:39 AM CST

Moderator

From the Oxford dictionary: 3 Biology an animal or plant showing abnormal or striking variation from the parent type, especially in form or colour, as a result of spontaneous mutation.
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
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banker07
Sep 3, 2013 11:07 AM CST
Hi,

I don't think that it is a sempervivum anyway.....

and a sport of Green Gables has to bloom light pink - not white;

a cross between heuffelii and sempervivum has never been done - or isn't yet documented;

greatings
banker07
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
Daylilies Roses Orchids Miniature Gardening Lilies Irises
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sandnsea2
Sep 3, 2013 11:17 AM CST
Thanks for that GREAT information!!!

Welcome! Peter!! We are thrilled to have you here!!! I tip my hat to you.

Hurray! Hurray! Hurray!
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
Dragonflies Birds Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Dog Lover Cat Lover
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banker07
Sep 3, 2013 11:52 AM CST
thanks for your friendly welcome *Blush*

I've not enough time to read all of your threads - but if there are questions about sempervivum or jovibarba you may mail me the link to that thread Thumbs up

maybe I've got an answer....maybe not Whistling

sorry for my bad english;

greatings
Peter
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
Daylilies Roses Orchids Miniature Gardening Lilies Irises
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sandnsea2
Sep 3, 2013 12:11 PM CST
Will do!
and your English is perfect Peter!!! I tip my hat to you.

Wish I could speak German. Only know a few words and enough to get around on your fabulous German Semp site

http://sempervivum-liste.de/kultivare?field_zis_value=All&ti...

Can you suggest any other good sources for us?
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
Daylilies Roses Orchids Miniature Gardening Lilies Irises
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sandnsea2
Sep 3, 2013 12:16 PM CST
Oops!
I just noticed the fantastic links to your sites at the bottom of your post.

I am in a bit of a dither as I am moving 800 miles away............ Blinking Blinking
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 3, 2013 2:28 PM CST

Moderator

I just got home.

Peter, thank you so much for your quick response to the questions concerning this plant. All your points make sense. Thumbs up
I want to thank you for the wonderful work you are doing at http://sempervivum-liste.de I use it almost daily. Winter is soon to come, so will be spending a lot of time there reading through the amazing information you have made available to all of us. I use Google translate to read it in English.

When I first saw the blooms it made me think of some type of sedum or rosularia, not a sempervivum. So maybe all of us should start searching in those directions?
Maybe ( @youngsgarden ) Toby can help us with this?



Name: Bev
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan Garden Ideas: Master Level Photo Contest Winner: 2014
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webesemps
Sep 3, 2013 3:47 PM CST
I'm so glad you said that Lynn, I thought, looking at the formation of the quasi-rosettes, Orostachys for 20 nanoseconds...not sempervivum.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 3, 2013 6:16 PM CST

Moderator

But it doesn't have Orostachys blooms. It is truly a puzzle, hopefully one that we will solve. Smiling

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
twitcher
Sep 3, 2013 10:18 PM CST
Seems like a possible new addition to the special forms.

BTW, I was under the impression from somewhere that Feuerrad and Jovan were heuffelii/sempervivum crosses. Could be an errant memory, but I'll throw this out there for consideration. When I look online, however, the info there indicates crosses between a heuffelii and nixonii so the memory is probably incorrect. Nice to get better information.
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
Dragonflies Birds Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Dog Lover Cat Lover
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banker07
Sep 4, 2013 1:46 AM CST
Hi twitcher;

Feuerrad and Jowan (with "w" or Jovian - both are known hybrids) are S. x nixonii - hybrids; S. x nixonii is a cross of S. globiferum x S. heuffelii;

there are 4 different nixonii-groups:

S. x nixonii (x kwediana): S. globiferum ssp. allionii x S. heuffelii
S. x nixonii (x mitchellii): S. globiferum ssp. arenarium x S. heuffelii
S. x nixonii (x nixonii): S. globiferum ssp. globiferum x S. heuffelii
S. x nixonii (x smithii): S. globiferum ssp. hirtum x S. heuffelii

the botanics put them together to S. x nixonii;

they are all hybrids without sempervivum - clean jovibarba-hybrids;

the breeder who made the most experiences with this hybrids was Cornelis Versteeg from Netherlands;

greatings
Peter
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Database Moderator
Seller of Garden Stuff I sent a postcard to Randy! Sempervivums Sedums Region: Wisconsin Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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goldfinch4
Sep 4, 2013 3:44 AM CST

Moderator

Welcome! Welcome Peter, so great to have you join us and thanks for comments. Like Lynn, I hope to spend more time this winter checking out your website.

Lynn, it only had one bloom stalk which I removed before it ripened. It's been renamed as a NOID and I'll keep posting pictures so we can all watch it together. Hope we're able to find out more about this one. Thanks everyone for your input!

(Sorry I'd not responded to any comments yet - family medical emergency has kept me off line.)
Cubits Store: The Sempervivum Patch - plants, containers, accessories!
Also stop by Timber Treasures and Garden Buddies on Cubits

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
twitcher
Sep 4, 2013 12:24 PM CST
Thank you peter, very interesting.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 4, 2013 6:47 PM CST

Moderator

Jowan has really been interesting to watch. Some of the offsets grow like heuffelii and others grow more like one of the roller types of Jovibarba.



When separating them, some have very short stolen, some are growing from one main crown/root.

So far all of my J. 'Feuerrad' grow on very short stolon, I have found non yet that have multiple rosettes from a single crown/root.

Peter, do you know why the Sempervivum and Jovibarba will not cross?
[Last edited by valleylynn - Sep 4, 2013 7:11 PM (+)]
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