This thread is being continued from the Larry Grace thread so as not to hijack Larry's thread.
I would like to get some opinions other than my own as what you think would work well trying to get patterns in different colors. I will be working with these a lot this coming bloom season because I have several things that I think the eye will be easy to break up. I may be completely out of the ball park so any thoughts you have are welcome.
The type of eye to start with is the first thing I believe you need to know, one that's easy to break up and what your going to use as the pollen to break it up to get the results your looking for. We know that most patterns came from converted dips mostly from E Salter and J Carpenter. I think this is the the reason that most patterns have the same basic colors with the exception of "Heather Grace" and maybe a few others I haven't seen. I want to create something with a totally different look as anyone who hybirdizes wants to do.
One flower I will use this coming season will be my own "Lillian's Alabama Sunrise" and some of its seedlings because I think the faint eye will be easy to break up. Now I have to determine which pollen to use with it to keep the same basic color and also break the eye into a patteren. Some of the seedlings are only one generation away if I use the right pollen.

This seedling is from (LAS x Coach's Hot Lips)

My thinking is that these type eyes will be easy to add different rings of color because there already starting to break. I have several more seedlings with this type eye so I have plenty to work with. I will cross some of seedlings and have to choose a pollen parent out of my line to work with before next spring. Any ideas are welcome, could be something I haven't considered and save me several years of work.

would this be a patterned eye.... I don't know what this daylily is but my daughter loved the eye so we took a picture up really close to see it....

In my opinion I think you have a green to yellow throat with a washed eye. Its getting close like this one, just needs a couple more colors added. I'm no expert on these but I would think you need at least four colors in the eye for a good pattern, another reason I wish more people would share there opinion.

Not to change the subject, but I really love those two seedlings, Spunky -- especially the first!

When I think of patterned eyes, Bob Faulkner comes to mind.

Hanesh - this web page should explain patterns.

http://www.daylilytrader.com/b...

http://www.northernmecca.com/i...

Someday I hope to visit Bob's garden.

Fred, have you considered using any of Bob's?

Those eyes are beautiful I see what you mean by the throat versus the eye.... the patterns in Bob's are really different. I like the eye of etched eyes.... of well we can only hope we have the right cross and get that needle in the haystack....

Thanks Betty, those were a year old in September, I moved them from the field to the hybridizing area in October so I could use them this coming spring.
Bob has mostly dips and I work with tets. I think he is releasing one tet for 2011 so I will wait another year or so. I bet some of the big guys have already converted some of his, he does have the best patterened dips I have seen. If anyone gets the chance to see his program don't miss it, he shows a lot more stuff than his web site.
Etched Eyes was really popolar when it was released in 95 because of that eye and was a must have for a lot of pollen dabbers.

I am so curious about what is involved in converting a dip to a tet... You are having to double the number of chromosomes, right? And does it take years by doing different crosses to accomplish that, or is it done by adding chromosomes at the cellular level and then tissue culturing the "new" cells? So sorry to be so ignorant, but I've only been seriously collecting daylilies for the past year or so and I'm a novice here.

I really do love the patterns and am just learning about them. I checked out those websites and saw those incredible daylily patterns, but it doesn't look like Mr. Faulkner sells daylilies through his website. Does he sell his daylilies at all?

On Bob's home page, look under contact information and there he tells you how to contact him for an order.

http://www.naturalselectionday...

Thanks, Ann, for posting that link. I have been checking Mr. Faulkner's website and see that one of his new introductions, SHIRLEY SNYDER, is a beautiful pink tet with a wonderful pattern and at least four colors like Fred was talking about, and I am wondering if it is possible to cross that with a toothy tet to try for a toothy patterned daylily. Is there such a thing? Hmmmm...

Most use a chemical which is applied to the crown of the plant. It doubles the chromosomes from 22 too 44 to make it a tet. There are a lot of daylilies killed in this process so I let someone who has done it for a while do mine for a better chance of survival. If the plant lives it still may not be a Tet, and may not bloom until the following year. I have waited as long as four years to get one that is Tet. I will pick up one from Florida in March I have waited on for three years. Its a slow process most of the time, this is why some of the conversions sell for $500.
As far as tootie patterns I would think Jamie Gossard already has them. He has done a lot of work with both so I'm sure he is crossing the two.

Thanks for that great input Fred. I think this is fascinating, and now I understand why a daylily such as the tet SPINDAZZLE that Maryott's was selling this year was so expensive! And I guess my next question(s) would be -- do they ever revert back to diploid, and how is ploidy usually determined on a daylily? Do you determine that a daylily seedling is a tet or dip based on its parentage, or does someone actually look at plant cells under a microscope or something? Sorry to be asking so many beginner questions.

Also, regarding a pollen parent to cross with your seedlings to add different rings of color, do you have any of your own daylilies you could use as a pollen parent that have any blue or deep purple in the eyezone? It seems to me that if you could add some real blue you might get into the deep burgundy to purple tones, and then possibly crossing the resulting seedlings might get to a little more blue purple. Your LILLIAN'S LYING EYES might be a good one to start with, as it has that washed burgundy eye. Of course, these are just suggestions from a beginner who knows very little about plant genetics, but I thought I would just throw this out to get the ball rolling... Does anyone else have any suggestions or ideas?

Some will revert back to dips after being treated if they are not 100% Tet. If you breed dip to dip you will only get dip seedlings and the same with tets. The best way to check a converted plant to see if it took is measure the pollen, tet pollen is larger than dip. I mail my pollen to someone who does this for me. They can tell me if its dip or Tet and sometimes its both, which means its not a full conversion, but there may be enough Tet pollen to set seed. The following year this partial conversion most likely will revert back to all dip.
LLE is where I have got my best to date patterns and I will continue to use it and its seedlings.

has anyone got a good patterned eye on a spider or double....

Fred, thank you so much for all this information. You've explained it so well, and I can see why it's pretty iffy at best to get a conversion that keeps and why it takes so long! I love that patterned daylily you just posted and can see you're well on your way to establishing a great line of patterns!

I've just been spending some time on Luddy Lambertson's Art Gallery Gardens website, and he has so many wonderful and unusual daylilies with patterns -- and some with teeth! I'm getting all sorts of ideas now -- ooh nooooo... But it seems to me I did see some spiders, or at least UFo's, with very interesting patterns -- mostly in the lavender-pinks to purples. And I think I did see a very double patterned daylily, although I'm not sure I liked it that much -- too confusing maybe -- on Bob Faulkner's site, or perhaps one of the other Region 2 nurseries I accessed through his website. Boy, there sure is some fantastic stuff out there!!!

Fred, I know you mentioned finding patterned daylilies in different colors than you usually see that you could use with your seedlings, and I saw this one on Jamie Gossard's Heavenly Gardens website and immediately thought of you. SUPERNATURAL is such an amazing flower and color combination -- and so is the price!

http://www.daylilynet.com/supe...

I hope I got this link copied correctly. Looks pretty strange...

Jamie has some of the best stuff around and I have bought a few of his this fall to use next year. Supernatural is really different with those different colors, but will wait another year until the price drops some.
Luddy has always had different stuff, but until recently he was really into the blue eyes. I do not want to get into another line so I have avoided his things. May change my mind in the future but at my age I have to think of what I can do and still enjoy doing it. This is LLE and where my patterens started.

I love those ruffles on LLE. It's really a beauty, and I can see some color bands in the eyezone. That was a great one to start with!

I've been checking the Heavenly Gardens website because Jaime Gossard has a notice up that his Spring 2011 intros will be coming in Nov. 2010, and of course he hasn't posted them yet -- but I noticed that he has a section on converting diploid daylilies to tet's. Very interesting!

http://www.daylilynet.com/id59...

Jamie is working on his Spring Intros and should be up shortly. You will see pattern eyed spider in his collection this year. So keep watching his website and/or make sure you are on the mailing list for the 2011 The Modern Daylily Catalog. You can send me your Name and address to get on the list.