Daylilies forum: Blooms from seedlings

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Nov 30, 2013 12:29 PM CST
This is a question I've had that seems to allude an answer ....

I have seen this mentioned many times in my info search on daylilies ....

Does a daylily plant from a seedling show true flower characteristics the first time it blooms?

If a daylily is grown from seed, how long does it take for the bloom characteristics to stabilize?

I really don't understand about whether or not and why when it blooms the first time - that it may not be showing the true characteristics the first year or even the second year. Why is that?

Can someone here explain that to me. Shrug! Thanks in advance!
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Name: shirlee
southeast (Zone 6b)
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mistyfog
Nov 30, 2013 11:25 PM CST
I can relate my own experiences. It really depends on the plant.

Usually, if a new seedling blooms several times, I can discern
the point of stabilization, especially when on rebloom the
blossom continues to bloom with the same characteristics
of the point of stabilization.

Some will continue to bloom in the above sequence, good or bad,
and that is just their overall characteristic. They have a sequence
of differences no matter what.

Some plants will show true flower characteristics on first bloom,
on rebloom, and in the next season. I love blooms that remain static.

Some will bloom fantastic on first bloom then turn into dogs, or
bloom ugly on first bloom and greatly improve later. Or maybe
wait until the next season to do either/or of these things.

If a seedling blooms only one time in the season we wait
until the next season to fully evaluate, especially if the plant has at least some
redeeming characteristics.

With this being said, there are other factors involved, like rain and temperatures.
If it rains before a blossom opens, I can expect a larger bloom. If a large fat bud is one of
a flower that is quite ruffled then the rain can cause water damage to the blossom. Often
this type of bud will be slightly open and the water seeps in. But, most of the time, rain
greatly improves a blossom in every way, at least here.

Some flowers bloom so much nicer in high temps, while others don't change that much
regardless of temperature changes.

And some have what I call "bad hair days", just another characteristic of a particular
seedling. After a time, I know what to expect from each individual plant. I also see
this in registered plants that I have purchased.

I do feel that if I had a greenhouse with more environmental control, perhaps the
differences would not be so obvious.

Hope this helps.
[Last edited by mistyfog - Nov 30, 2013 11:28 PM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 1, 2013 12:10 AM CST
Shirlee - Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with me! So basically the old adage of waiting 3 years to know what the "true" blooms of any particular daylily (from seed) is ... just isn't necessarily correct? So the color doesn't change from the first year to the third year? Nothing freaky happens from the first bloom to the third year blooms? I don't know why I have seen that mentioned numerous times online?

Well, glad to know that there shouldn't be much change from the first bloom to the latest blooms. I know there may be exceptions to that rule. And I never thought about rain creating bigger blooms! Makes sense!!!! Thumbs up Thumbs up
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Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Dec 1, 2013 6:03 AM CST
Here on the Gulf Coast where we have very little winter and normally plenty of rain, selected seedlings can be very different from the first to second year. There seems to be little change from the second year to the third, but my selected seedlings are moved and lined out each of the three years, so what I'm seeing could be very different from what others farther north are seeing. During a normal year I will flag 35-45 first year seedlings on rebloom from the 2500 planted, I never select a seedling that doesn't rebloom. During the second year 2/3 of these will be culled because of some flaw with the bloom or scape. The third year I am lucky to have a half dozen for introduction in there forth year. All this elimination has happened in three years because of changes in the bloom or plant itself. I destroyed two plants that I had enough to register this year because they were rust magnets at three years old, another had two of the six clumps die from crown rot, none of these problems showed up until they were three years old. You never really know what will happen until they are at least three years old and even after it's a crap shoot.
This is the way things happen here, it could be different else where.
[Last edited by spunky1 - Dec 1, 2013 6:06 AM (+)]
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Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Dec 1, 2013 6:07 AM CST
I always wait 3 to 4 years before I cull seedlings. You are very fortunate Fred that you live in a climate where you get rebloom. We very seldom get it here and I really can't select seedlings for rebloom unless I ship them elsewhere and have someone else watch them for me. I tried that once and the person fell on hard times and sold all of my seedlings without asking me, so I am not likely to ever do that again.
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Dec 1, 2013 7:10 AM CST
There can be a big difference in blooms or they may be none at all. It may be more of a northern thing on the "3 year" waiting. When I first started into daylilies and was doing a lot of reading online most of what I read was geared more for the northern gardens especially the seed part. I was set against hybridizing because most of what I read said I had to wait a minimum of 3 years to even see blooms and I'm not that patient. I have read that some people DO NOT let them bloom first year even if they sent up scapes so the plant will continue to grow and mature and it won't stress the plant.

The bid difference with north and south is it takes 3-4 year from seed to intro (usually) in most of the south where in the north (without a greenhouse) I've read it can be 6-10 years from seed to intro. I can't remember which northern hybridizer it was but she said that most of hers took about 10 years before she could introduce them. Area without a lot of rain can take longer also if they rely heavily on rain for watering.

Around here we wait 3 years on keepers then the 4th year (sometimes 3rd) we register the ones we keep. We aren't waiting on the blooms to get better for those 3 years, we are waiting on the rest of the plant. A pretty face is great but that is secondary to the scape, branching, bud count, and such when we are watching it the first year. We do not pick keepers solely on the bloom.

First year is bloom (most of them) and then we evaluate on rebloom to see if they stay another year. We evaluate on rebloom because they have matured more and the bud count, branching, scape height, and bloom should be on the truer side. We try and get first year blooms here so the seedlings may bloom when they are only 7 months old so they are still trying to mature, grow roots, grow bigger, and bloom so they more than likely will not show true characteristics on first bloom scapes. This is also where we see if the plant actually lives after blooming. I have had some (not many) that after they bloom they just up and die. If they make it after evaluation they are moved to the keeper beds.

Second year - if they made it to the keeper list the first year then second year is making sure the stats are the same or better than the first year and we also check fertility. We will check fertility on first year but sometimes they won't set because they are putting their energy into growing and blooming. The blooms may also not look as good the second year so they may get tossed, they may have flaws, color change and such. Sometimes a seedling that doubled ever bloom the first year will never bloom double again (ever) and then you have some that may be 50-50 on blooms and you want to make sure they actually double the following year (for those who do doubles).

Third year- if it makes it to the keep another year list then at the end of the second season they are divided and lined out to make sure they live. Some daylilies do not like to be divided and will all die once they are. I have no idea why but it happens. If they live and everything goes well the third bloom season then they are may be registered at the end of the season. If they need to increase more to have enough to introduce then they will be registered at the end of the fourth season.


Fred showed some in a thread somewhere on here on how they can look different so maybe if he has time he will post them.

Here are some photos of how they can change here in my garden


These are from the same plant on first year seedling

Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/f68b5a Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/37702d Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/517435


This is a daylily I kept last year because of the eye and the second photo is from the second season and it lost the "look" and color

Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/078a40 Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/52cd62


This is one that was UGLY to start with but the color just faded away as it kept blooming

Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/4bef5f Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/c457f0


Daylilies don't necessarily get tossed around here because they are ugly or not as pretty as others. If it has good branching and bud count and a good scape then they may get used to breed with a pretty face that doesn't have the other going for it.

Now I will say that if they look like this I will NOT keep it even if it has good stats
Thumb of 2013-12-01/tink3472/871436

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[Last edited by tink3472 - Dec 1, 2013 7:26 AM (+)]
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Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
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Hemlady
Dec 1, 2013 7:39 AM CST
I had a seedling look like that last one Michele. I didn't keep mine either. Thumbs down
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 1, 2013 7:56 AM CST
Fred, Cynthia, and Michele - THANKS!!! This is one of the most interesting threads I've read about hybridizing daylilies! Now I am starting to understand how much some hybrids can change from year to year.

Michele - Thanks for posting those photos! Some of the changes in blooms is shocking! I had NO IDEA that some first year blooms could change that much! The first one really knocked me over with the change! Incredible!!! And the third one, too! That last photo is sure freaky! What would cause that yellow vein streaking through the blooms like that? It's a characteristic from a gene? That is so bizarre!

Fred (or anyone else) - Please post a link to the thread where "you" posted the bloom photos that show the change in the flowers from bloom to bloom and year to year. I would REALLY like to see them! I can't imagine planting 2500 seedlings only to destroy almost all of them for a choice few. And then culling those few again! That leaves me stunned!!! Really!

And ... To wait 10 years in some of the northern states before a new daylily would be worthy of registration and introduction is really unbelievable!!! 10 long years???!!! Can you imagine all the cultivars and new characteristics that can be introduced in that period of time in the southern states. Almost not worth the effort to even try to hybridize in the north! (Not meaning to insult anyone with that comment ....) Though of course, there are millions of northern gardeners who would likely buy a new intro that was suited for the north ... so I am probably off course with my thinking ....

I have no intention of selling any daylilies, but I am very interested in registering a few of my hybrids in memory or honor of someone .... and/or .... as a very special gift for a family member or a friend. At $20 to register a hybrid, what an inexpensive but really lovely gift to honor someone with or to give in memory of someone dear who has passed away.

So my questioning is to help me determine what would make a daylily worthy of registration. Since most of my family/friends would most notice the blooms and not so much the growth habit ... that is why I ask about the number of years for the blooming of a daylily before considering the possibility of naming and registering any.

Y'all are so wonderfully helpful in your answer and photos! Thank you so very, very much!!! Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up
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Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Dec 1, 2013 8:52 AM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Dec 1, 2013 7:59 AM CST
All this also makes me REALLY appreciate a newly named and registered cultivar created from a hybridizer! So much work for just a few!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Dec 1, 2013 8:08 AM CST
Also, please tell me more about the rust susceptibility of some daylilies .... some are and many aren't? I know that daylily rust was introduced into this country from a foreign import somewhere along the line.... What other traits are not deemed desirable? Prone to pests or other diseases? Are all daylilies susceptible to root-knot nematodes? (I ask because that is an issue we battle down here in the southern portion of Florida.)

Fascinating discussion. So much to learn and such a great group of daylily hybridizers and experts here! Truly awesome!!!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Dec 1, 2013 8:13 AM (+)]
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Dec 1, 2013 8:38 AM CST
I have never heard of root-knot nematodes before. I just looked it up and obviously it's been known for a long time to possibly affect daylilies in Florida, one report was from 1995.

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Name: Gerry Donahue
Pleasant Lake, IN (Zone 5b)
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profesora
Dec 1, 2013 1:20 PM CST
I have hybridized other plants, and I have just started to hybridize daylilies. I plan to hybridize daylilies seriously starting 2014. I live in the north, zone 5b.

This week I will be 63, and I plan to live to 92. I have plenty of time to see the results of my efforts.

I plan to share my knowledge with my only grandson, Owen, who will be three in March. He has cerebral palsy and I am sure he will see the results of my efforts.

On my birthday next week, I will have my first mammogram since my treatment for breast cancer. I still plan to live to 92.

I have faith that my efforts will not be waisted.

Gerry



Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Dec 1, 2013 1:55 PM CST
beckygardener said:
So my questioning is to help me determine what would make a daylily worthy of registration. Since most of my family/friends would most notice the blooms and not so much the growth habit ... that is why I ask about the number of years for the blooming of a daylily before considering the possibility of naming and registering any.



If it's just for family/friends then you may not need to wait as long to register it. I would at least wait until the end of the second season (if it bloomed first year) to make sure it stays the way you want it to look. Even if your family/friends will only be looking mainly at the blooms you would still want to make sure it had some good plant habits. It could be the most gorgeous bloom in the world but if it only has a few buds then it would be a clump of foliage for the rest of the season so you want to make sure it has a good amount of buds (whatever the number you feel is good) and possible rebloom.
[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Dec 1, 2013 3:53 PM CST
Do not know where the other post might be but here are
some examples.
LILLIAN'S DONNA ANN MANNING as a seedling in 2010
Thumb of 2013-12-01/spunky1/9777bf
LILLIAN'S DONNA ANN MANNING as a seedling in 2011
Thumb of 2013-12-01/spunky1/29b3f9
In 2012 and 2013 it finally decided what it wanted to look like
and was registered this fall.
LILLIAN'S DONNA ANN MANNING 2014
Thumb of 2013-12-01/spunky1/411e19
Here you can see no teeth and was selected for the green edge
In 2012 I noticed it had teeth with the green edge.
LILLIAN'S SECOND BITE as a seedling in 2010
Thumb of 2013-12-01/spunky1/c27acf
LILLIAN'S SECOND BITE 2014


All hybridizer's that do any amount of seedlings have to destroy most of them before running out of room and time to care for them. I am very brutal when it comes to selection, only the very best of what I have will stay here for three years. Some years none have made the cut, the last time that happened wasn't that long ago 2008.

Name: Doris&David Bishop
Cartersville, Ga. (Zone 7b)
Daylilies Cat Lover Clematis Region: Georgia Garden Art
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Casshigh
Dec 1, 2013 7:24 PM CST
Becky,
On the AHS Portal's "Hybridizing" forum, there is a discussion on what makes a daylily worthy of being registered. There are some good opinions on that thread. There seems to be a wide difference in not only what is registered, but what is offered for sale, and at what price. Some seem to me to be incredibly beautiful with great plant characteristics, while others seem pretty plain faces with not much branching or bud counts. So, I'd say if you want to register one of your flowers, go for it. It's that same price as 6 gallons of gas, but lasts longer. We figure in another few years that Doris and I will have something worth introducing, if we keep reading everything we can, and keep dabbing pollen. If not, we had fun trying! If we could just focus on one thing, instead of loving every form, size, and ploidy!!
David and Doris
"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing"~~~David Bishop
http://daylilyfans.com/bishop/
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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chalyse
Dec 1, 2013 9:10 PM CST
Awesome thread and posts!

I'm finally going to ask .. what is "lining out"? Even google can't help me with that ....

... and ... how do you get a bloom in seven months? Can you walk us through the life cycle of that seedling from sprout to bloom (rate of growth, care and feeding, amount of sun, temps, etc)? - I'm still waiting on a bloom from seeds planted in 2011, and we have 9 months of growing season ... and even if I started stored seed from the previous year during early spring I would miss getting blooms on all the EE, E, and EM's at the very least (too young at that point in the growing season...).

I'll second the question about the yellow streaking ... I know it is important to cull flaws, but I am also fascinated with how many flaws later turn out to be new breakthroughs down the line (UFs, etc). I think those of us who are hobby hybridizer-wannabes are more interested in pursuing the unusual or intriguing, but not if its just a bloom feature that indicates it is weak, sickly, or unstable (unrepeating)..

Also, thanks for mentioning that some DLs just die after blooming - I had a few do that this year and thought it was just because I was supposed to fertilize after bloom (though I did not do that for many others that ended up thriving after bloom... so I should have taken the clue lol!). Would you feel that is a plant characteristic that could be pretty easily bred out on an otherwise worthy cultivar, for those of us with too much time on our hands (hobby hybridizers)?
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[Last edited by chalyse - Dec 1, 2013 9:31 PM (+)]
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Dec 1, 2013 9:35 PM CST
chalyse said:

Would you feel that is a plant characteristic that could be pretty easily bred out on an otherwise worthy cultivar, for those of us with too much time on our hands (hobby hybridizers)?


I think it's just something that happens. I really have not seen it as a fault in a cultivar such as all the seedlings from a certain cultivar do this or a majority do; it's sort of a hit or miss kind of thing from my observations. It may just have been too much for it to bloom so soon and couldn't handle the stress or it could have just been a weakling from the get go and wouldn't have mad it anyway. It also could have been crowded and shaded out by the others around it and just didn't get enough sun and such to survive. I have had this happen to mature plants that get crowded out by those around it and can't get enough sun, they just kind of struggle and are leggy and scrawny and look like they are on deaths door step when I find them in the middle of the others.


[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Dec 1, 2013 9:51 PM CST
chalyse said:Awesome thread and posts!

I'm finally going to ask .. what is "lining out"? Even google can't help me with that ....



"lining out" is just dividing a daylily into SF or DF or actually however you plan to divide it and replant them. This is usually for selling purposes and I have no idea where the term came from but would assume it's from planting them in a line.
[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Dec 1, 2013 10:03 PM CST
[quote="chalyse"]
I'll second the question about the yellow streaking ... I know it is important to cull flaws, but I am also fascinated with how many flaws later turn out to be new breakthroughs down the line (UFs, etc). I think those of us who are hobby hybridizer-wannabes are more interested in pursuing the unusual or intriguing, but not if its just a bloom feature that indicates it is weak, sickly, or unstable (unrepeating)..

quote]

Becky also wrote "What would cause that yellow vein streaking through the blooms like that? It's a characteristic from a gene?"


The parents of this bloom are both trying to be dominant I suppose Shrug! The pod parent is red and the pollen parent is yellow so that's where the red and yellow of the bloom comes in at, but what made it do this streaking is beyond me. A few others in this cross did the same thing, but they got tossed also. If I remember correctly the blooms cleared up slightly but they were still terrible looking. We joked about that very thing how flaws turn into the next "big thing".
[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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chalyse
Dec 1, 2013 10:04 PM CST
It is amazing how much relief is felt when one finally understands a term that has eluded them for two years ... you Angel ! And, yes, I have a sneaking suspicion that those odd "streakers" would be of much interest once/if/when the color and pattern were stabilized a bit .... Thanks for your thoughts on all of these questions ... they really do mean so much to all of us! Thumbs up
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Dec 1, 2013 10:07 PM (+)]
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