Roses forum: Question for everyone about personal preference

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Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
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Skiekitty
Jan 14, 2014 12:17 AM CST
My DH has an interesting question and he'd like to get some people's opinion. This is purely just for him and myself. What he'd like to know is the percentile of people who grow "heirloom" roses (OGRs) almost or 100% exclusively versus people who grow "modern" roses, plus a general age of that gardener. I'll use myself for an example.

I grow almost exclusively modern roses (I think I have only 3 OGRs). Age group: 35-50 (I'm 40 years old).

Anyone want to play along? I suggest putting the age groups as such:

Under 20
20-35
35-50
50-65
65-80
80 & over
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Jan 14, 2014 1:24 AM CST

Moderator

Oh, this is fun. I'm in the 65-80 age group and at least 99 percent of my roses are modern. I have some OGRs, but most of them are mislabeled roses that were supposed to be modern when I bought them.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
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porkpal
Jan 14, 2014 7:33 AM CST
An interesting thread! I too am in the 65 - 80 group and I grow primarily old garden roses and "modern" roses bred from them. I started out with a lot of modern Hybrid Teas and Floribundas, but they are culling themselves, and I now have about 80% OGRs and will not plan to add any modern roses in the future.
Porkpal
Name: Paul
Utah (Zone 5b)
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Paul2032
Jan 14, 2014 7:37 AM CST
65-80 age group here. Where has the time gone? 95% of my roses are HT's.
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Name: Annette
Duluth, Ga (Zone 7a)
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Cem9165
Jan 14, 2014 7:15 PM CST
Hi Toni,

I'm in the 30-50 range and the roses that I have are all modern. I ordered my 1st OGRs this week.

Annette
"Aspire to inspire before you expire"

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Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
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lovemyhouse
Jan 14, 2014 7:26 PM CST
I am in the 50-65 group and don't know that answer for sure, but I'd say mine are pretty much all modern roses except for the mutant climbers in back. How would I tell from the database?
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'
Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
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dirtdorphins
Jan 14, 2014 7:54 PM CST
I am in the waaaaay too close to almost 50 age range and I'm currently about 30/70 on OGR/modern.
Unless I don't properly understand what qualifies as OGR.
I'll tell ya one thing for sure, after digging out the legacy Dr. Huey rootstock all over the place, all my new ones have been and will continue to be on their own roots Green Grin!
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Jan 14, 2014 8:56 PM CST

Moderator

OGR's are all the classes of roses that existed before 1867, the year the first hybrid tea appeared (some sources use 1836 as the date). They include albas, centifolias, bourbons, gallicas, moss roses, damasks, tea roses, china roses, noisettes, and some others I've probably forgotten. Even if these were bred after 1867, they're still called OGR's because their classes existed before that date.

The modern roses are hybrid teas, floribundas, grandifloras, large-flower climbers, miniatures, shrub roses, hybrid perpetuals, hybrid musks, polyanthas, and some others I've probably forgotten. They did not exist before 1867.
[Last edited by zuzu - Jan 15, 2014 2:12 AM (+)]
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Name: Liz Best
Elizabeth Colorado (Zone 4b)
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LizinElizabeth
Jan 14, 2014 9:00 PM CST
I just bought my first roses this fall for spring delivery so can't play the game yet but wanted to ask, what attracts those of you who replied to heirloom or modern? I'm an obsessed peony grower and most of the roses I found myself ordering looked like a smaller version of a full, double peony; didn't even notice heirloom or modern....If they grow well I'm sure roses will be another obsession for me but I'm trying to learn right now!
Liz
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
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lovemyhouse
Jan 14, 2014 9:03 PM CST
Ah, thank you, Zuzu. Closest I have, then, is Gardenia, which the database says "before 1898." It is one of the climbers in back that has been smothered by the mutant pink. All the others would be modern.
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Jan 14, 2014 9:17 PM CST

Moderator

Close, but no cigar, Debra. Smiling Gardenia is a hybrid wichurana, a class that did not exist before 1867.
[Last edited by zuzu - Jan 15, 2014 2:12 AM (+)]
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Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
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dirtdorphins
Jan 14, 2014 9:34 PM CST
Thanks ZuZu-
so then the Bourbons count, what about the species roses like the rugosa I drove many miles to get?
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Jan 14, 2014 9:41 PM CST

Moderator

Species roses are in a category of their own and aren't classified as OGR's or modern roses.

Hybrid rugosas are modern roses. The rugosa species was never used in breeding programs until a few decades ago.
Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
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dirtdorphins
Jan 14, 2014 10:00 PM CST
Okay, I'll presume the noids are modern and call it 20 OGR/70 modern/10 neither.
Thanks for the help!

skiekitty, I hope you share your conclusions once you gather enough data...and I'm also curious about the original hypothesis ??? but don't tell us yet...I don't want to spoil my own Smiling
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
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Skiekitty
Jan 14, 2014 10:21 PM CST
Oh, the reasoning for this "poll" is because he was thinking that people here would want to be growing OGRs (Heirlooms) because that's what hipsters do, grow / collect "vintage" things. I tried to explain to him that gardeners aren't going to be hipsters and people here aren't that goofy, but he just didn't know. That's the whole reason behind this. Denver is heavily populated with hipsters and they're SOOOO annoying.. Plus I tried to explain that people here grow roses because we love roses, not because it's cool or hip or anything. There's nothing hip about bleeding from an overly blood-thirsty rose with a billion thorns on it... (George Burns / Charles de Mills.. I'm looking at you...)
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
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RoseBlush1
Jan 15, 2014 1:58 AM CST
Toni...

I am glad you shared why you are doing your survey.

I wasn't going to join this thread simply because age has nothing to do with my choice of roses that I grow in this garden. Maybe the same thing may be true for others.

In my climate, where I get high temps all summer long with low humidity, the petal substance of most ogr classes simply isn't thick enough to survive the heat. Roses I grew in Socal in a more coastal climate, fry to ugly blobs up here.

The classes of roses that have the thicker petal substance are hybrid teas, grandifloras, floribundas and miniatures and mini-floras. ... the "modern" roses. A very few of the hybrid perpetuals might be able to handle this climate. Not every rose in the modern classes have the thicker petal substance needed, so a study of the plant characteristic is really the determining factor for me.

Just some thoughts about how I have chosen roses for this garden.

Zuzu .. I thought 'La France' was the first HT and was introduced in 1867. Minor detail because there were no other "new" classes of roses before its introduction.

Smiles,
Lyn



I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Jan 15, 2014 2:11 AM CST

Moderator

Lyn, you're right. La France is said to have been the first hybrid tea, and it is dated 1867. I'll edit my comments accordingly.

I do find 1836 and 1837 specified as the cut-off date for OGR's in a few sources. I wonder what they were using as the milestone event. Is it possible it has something to do with the hybrid perpetual class? Hybrid perpetuals are not classified as OGRs, but they were around before 1867. I know some were bred in the 1840s.
[Last edited by zuzu - Jan 15, 2014 2:24 AM (+)]
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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
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RoseBlush1
Jan 15, 2014 3:05 AM CST
Zuzu...

HPs... were actually the transitional class from the once blooming roses to the repeat blooming roses when the china and tea roses were introduced into crosses with the European ogrs. They were the first class ... other than the chinas and teas which were imported ... that had repeat bloom. At the time, no one could figure out how to classify them. In some rose literature they are classified as ogrs, but in a lot of rose literature, the writers kind of skipped over this class simply because they didn't know where to put it. That's common with a transitional class.

In a way, it's kind of silly to think of the what we call ogrs as the "old garden roses" because the roses bred in China had repeat blooming roses approximately 7,000 years before the European roses, with their class system evolving to define the original European classes as ogrs. I am certain there were other HTs before 'La France', but they were not recognized as the "first hybrid tea". 'La France' was another rose which defied classification systems at the time was introduced. If I remember correctly, it was about 30 years before the hybrid tea class was officially recognized. So, there is a lot of wiggle room with the dates.

Then rose breeders continued to mess up formal classification systems by introducing polyanthas and then floribundas. It's possible for roses during those times to be designated in several different classes .. depending on the author and the nursery introducing the roses. In a way, it's kind of fun to look back and see how they muddled through the process of classification.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
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dirtdorphins
Jan 15, 2014 8:31 AM CST
Rolling on the floor laughing
Seriously, I don't know--what age is a 'hipster' and what is a 'hipster' ???:confused:

Told my non-gardener BF about your survey and what I had just learned about roses. He thought about it a minute and rattled off a bunch of names (Burns, Yeats, Blake, Dante, Chaucer, Milton...) and said something along the lines of "hmmm...that makes more sense now--those guys were talking about a different kind of rose not the plastified thing you get on the boutonniere today..."
and now he wants me to get some Hilarious! but I don't want to have ugly fried blobs
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Service dogs: Angels with paws.
Dragonflies Dog Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover Plays in the sandbox
Butterflies Region: Texas I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member Annuals Garden Sages
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lovemyhouse
Jan 15, 2014 8:41 AM CST
Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'

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