Plant ID forum: XGraptosedum

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Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Sep 20, 2014 5:23 PM CST
I got this unlabeled plant from Wal-Mart about 4 years ago. My own searches have not been satisfactory. Google images has several that look very similar, but with different names. Graptoveria, Echeveria and I think a couple of more. So I'm hoping someone else might have been strolling through Wal-Mart a few years ago and had the same impulse Smiling to buy. It has a five petaled bloom that is yellow with small brown markings.
Thumb of 2014-09-20/needrain/9aaa02

Donald
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
Sep 21, 2014 6:38 AM CST
This could be a possibility:
XGraptosedum 'Vera Higgins'
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Sep 21, 2014 7:25 AM CST
Thank you, Tiffany.

Yes, I think that is probably it. Interesting. This info took me to the database which contained a former ATP thread. That thread referenced this site:

http://crassulaceae.net/xgraptosedummenu/121-list/1034-xgrap...

which contained this info:

" 'Bronze'
Origin unknown / Origine inconnue.
Parentage / Parentรฉ : Graptopetalum paraguayense x Sedum stahlii (?)
Named by / Nommรฉ par Marjorie Shields, New Zealand, as a Sedum hybrid (Nat. Cact. & Succ. Journ. 33 (4): 86, 1978).
Also distributed as / Aussi distribuรฉ comme : xG. โ€˜Vera Higginsโ€™, xG. โ€˜Coffeeโ€™, xG. โ€˜Alpenglowโ€™ (ISI 2001-34), Graptopetalum Roseum n.n."

So along with 'Vera Higgins', this plant is distributed under the names of 'Bronze', 'Coffee', 'Alpenglow' and Roseum. The photos on that site match everything about the plant I'm growing. But listing all the given names is a hassle, but I think Graptopetalum paraguayense x Sedum stahlii (?) is going to make it a Graptosedum. It's amazing how many common names plants acquire. And I probably don't want to know how many other plants may share the same common name. 'Alpenglow' sounds awfully familiar Smiling
Donald
[Last edited by needrain - Sep 21, 2014 7:35 AM (+)]
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Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Sep 21, 2014 7:45 AM CST
I guess from looking at that link, though. Mine could also be 'Bert Swanwick'. That also looks like my plant and is from the same cross as the other one, but using different clones. That's about as identical genetically as you could get, so it's not surprising 'Bert' and 'Vera' look alike.
Donald
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
Image
needrain
Sep 21, 2014 8:01 AM CST
Another question. I'm trying to figure out from the above "Graptopetalum Roseum n.n." This doesn't seem to be another common name like 'Bronze' or 'Vera Higgins', but seems to be saying it's a variant of Graptopetalum paraguayense. What does "n.n." mean? Anyone know? I couldn't find any further references to G. Roseum, but the way it's written indicates it would not be a hybrid, just a variant of Graptopetalum. Who arbitrates the nomenclature for these plants?
Donald
[Last edited by needrain - Sep 21, 2014 9:02 AM (+)]
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Name: Hetty
Sunny Naples, Florida (Zone 10a)
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Dutchlady1
Sep 21, 2014 8:54 AM CST
@valleylynn might have insight.
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
Sep 21, 2014 9:13 AM CST
nomen nudem, nom. nud. or n.n.
Indicates that the plant in question has not yet been validly described.
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
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valleylynn
Sep 21, 2014 9:30 AM CST
The source for genus names is usually the Catalogue of Life.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/search/all/key/graptopeta...
http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/

An article on graptopetalum: http://crassulaceae.net/graptopetalummenu/59-speciesgraptope...
http://www.crassulaceae.ch/de/artikel?akID=60&aaID=2&aiID=B&...
http://www.smgrowers.com/products/plants/plantdisplay.asp?pl...

You may have already read some of these. I don't know what the n. n. means.
It will help identify your plant when it blooms, but it really does look like Graptosedum 'Vera Higgins'.
Nice plant you have.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 21, 2014 9:31 AM CST
Thank you Tiffany, we cross posted. Smiling
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
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purpleinopp
Sep 21, 2014 11:21 AM CST
This was labeled Sedeveria 'Sorrento.'
Just took this pic, the buds are pinkish but could be yellow flowers inside:
Thumb of 2014-09-21/purpleinopp/f0d240

XSedeveria 'Sorrento'
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 21, 2014 11:53 AM CST
Very nice. I would love to see the bloom when it opens.
It gets so confusing trying to sift through the different graptopedalum and graptosedum.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Sep 21, 2014 4:52 PM CST
Thanks everyone. Here are some more photos of the bud, the flower and the original plant. The smgrowers.com link described the bloom as having 4 petals and the buds as being pink. The buds aren't pink, but the spathes or bud covering takes on the same reddish pinkish hue the leaves do and that may be why they are describing them as pink. The flowers definitely have 5 petals. The look very much like the flower on the 'Bert Swanwick' specimen shown on the crassulaceae.net site. I don't see how anyone could tell 'Vera Higgins' apart from 'Bert Swanwick' based on the photos shown. Any visual differences could easily be accounted for by light, growing conditions and things of that sort.

I do think Tiffany's definition of n.n. puts the whole Graptopetalum Roseum bit in a lot of doubt as to its validity.

So pictures. The bud:
Thumb of 2014-09-21/needrain/d7572d

The bloom:
Thumb of 2014-09-21/needrain/5e9a04

The old plant. The first photo is a newer batch from this one, which is where the blooms are. It's pretty much been in bloom all summer.
Thumb of 2014-09-21/needrain/e635e3

Sorry if the photos aren't clear enough. I find it really hard to get sharp close-ups. I think the camera is capable, but the operator falls short. At this point I'm inclined to think this is Graptosedum, but not willing to distinguish between the cultivars 'Bert Swanwick' or 'Vera Higgins' from what I can see. What do you think?

Donald
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 21, 2014 5:26 PM CST
You should try germinating some of the seed.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Sep 21, 2014 7:30 PM CST
Just what I need, Lynn. More baby plants to take care of! I spent the day starting to get the garage clear for storing plants. I don't think there's enough room.

Will it make seeds, I wonder? I sorta figured it would be a sterile hybrid. After I read your post, I went and pulled off three dried blooms. One old one, one fairly recent (still with green) and one in between. I didn't see anything inside that looked like a seed. It may be I just don't know what I'm looking for and they are so small I can't see them, but mainly it just looked like a failed bloom shell without any kind of seed casing. I guess I could cut off the whole long bloom stalk and lay it out on a planting medium as is and see if anything happened. I might lose patience if something didn't happen pretty soon, though. What I'm seeing really doesn't look like something containing seeds.
Donald
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 21, 2014 8:23 PM CST
You might be correct, it very well could be sterile.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Sep 21, 2014 9:38 PM CST
"xG. โ€˜Bronzeโ€™ and xG. โ€˜Bert Swanwickโ€™ are quite similar. The colour of the leaves is slightly different but the flowers are identical. That means the two hybrids are different clones most probably of the same crossing."

That blurb comes from the crassulaceae.net page which shows a series of photos of both XGraptosedum 'Bronze' aka 'Vera Higgins' etc and of XGraptosedum 'Bert Swanwick'. I have to say that mine has been variable on the color of the leaves depending on whether it was baking in full sun and I was forgetting to water it or depending on the time of year due probably to both sunlight length and temperature. Hard to know, but I'd be inclined to select mine as the 'Vera Higgins' clone based on the more reddish tint. I wonder if 'Bert Swanwick' ever got distributed outside Australia. The link:
http://crassulaceae.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar...
Donald
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 21, 2014 10:00 PM CST
At this point I would go with Vera Higgins. It sure is a beautiful plant.
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
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purpleinopp
Sep 22, 2014 8:03 AM CST
Wish I'd pasted the link where I copied the info, I usually do, sorry for the omission. It was somewhere in Oxford dictionary but didn't show up again repeating the search I thought I did the other day.

Wiki does have a nice explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomen_nudum

With any unknown plant, I never attach a cultivar name unless it's beyond dispute. Cultivars of ornamental plants are usually patented, so any name without a patent attached might not actually be a cultivar name, but a cutesy name attached by the grower or retailer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultivar

Donald, love your pics! My little guys want to look like that when they grow up!
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
Image
needrain
Sep 22, 2014 8:58 AM CST
I agree, Tiffany. I won't be putting any photos in the database for that reason. I'm satisfied that it's XGraptosedum, but not certain about the cultivar name. If old 'Bert' didn't exist or if there was information indicating it remained in Australia, then it'd be okay. While it seems likely that mine is 'Vera' which seems to have been more widely distributed, I would have to see mine growing side x side with two known cultivars to assign a name with any certainty. In fact, those two look so much the same to me I wonder if even that would be enough. There would have to be some clearly distinct difference between them when grown under identical conditions. If folks aren't careful, it just makes identification of a plant even worse. It's bad enough at how often they get reclassified by genus and species by the botanists. I think as time goes on, the DNA identification factor may help stabilize some of that.
Donald
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
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purpleinopp
Sep 22, 2014 7:35 PM CST
Eloquently said, Donald. Easier for those learning the new names from the jump, but will all of the info attached to the old name be available? IDK.
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.

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