Hi Jai,
Very glad to have you joining this conversation. I do indeed use heat sources in my basement indoor garden. I have three 2' x 4' shelves devoted to germinating seeds at the present time, and each of them is covered by a large heating mat with a thermostat set at 80 F. Their sensors are buried in one of the pots on the shelves. They are not on a timer, so they are always energized, even at night. Their indicator lights indicate that the heating mats are usually on when it is dark, and spend a fair amount of time on during the light periods.

My growing shelves are lit by 32 watt 4-foot T8 fluorescent lights, and there are a bunch of them (3 or 4 2-bulb shoplight fixtures per shelf), so during the 16-hour light periods they actually put out a significant amount of heat. The fluorescent lighting puts out much more heat than the heating pads. This is a picture of a growing shelf from a previous year, and the shelving units from a previous time when we were using them upstairs. (You can click on these pictures to see larger versions.)



I have since added several more shelving units to my indoor gardening project. The utility room is connected to the rest of the furnished basement via double doors, which I keep open to get air exchange with the heated part of the basement. It probably never drops below 60F in the utility room even when the temperature is below zero outside with a North wind. (The utility room is on the north side of the house, but it is almost completely underground.)

I do have a cooking thermometer that I use to probe the growing medium temperatures, to satisfy my curiosity. Zinnias actually do well in hot weather, but can do OK in cooler temperatures as well. However, Powdery Mildew is more likely in cooler temperatures.

I would be glad to comment on any plans you might have for growing zinnias indoors.

ZM

Thank you. I already grow lots of other easy things (lettuce, radishes, geraniums, bulbs, cacti, houseplants, aquatic plants, coleus,) indoors so I am excited to try zinnias.

I don't know the specifics of either my lights (I have both florescent and LED) or my heating pads. I just use what works. I should probably know what they are called though. :P

In your second picture, what size are the pots on the bottom? Are those the final pots? I have all my square nursery containers ready but I'm not sure I have that exact size en masse (but maybe I do, which is why I ask for the size).

For posterity, here is a picture of one of my coleus that I bred from seed last year. It is a green-red-white tricolor, which is not very common because frequently they have several different issues. But I grew it from seed and now have two clones of it in my basement waiting for late spring.

Here are a couple more photos that I would like to share.

One shows two young Zinnia haageana plants with different foliage layouts (one has all its leaves in small but cobby triplets, the other in large but lanky pairs).

The other picture is a mutt that I grew several years ago. I'm not sure what its parentage might have been but it looks like it might have been plucked by finches.

Hi Jai,

" I don't know the specifics of either my lights (I have both florescent and LED) or my heating pads. I just use what works. "

I started using T8 shoplights many years ago. They were "state of the art" back then. They are obsolescent now, with growers going to HID, LED, T5, etc. My T8s still work, and I have them onhand, so they are what I use. LED lighting is kind of the "wave of the future".

" In your second picture, what size are the pots on the bottom? Are those the final pots? "

Those were 5 x 5 inch square pots. They were final then and are final now for most of my zinnias. But when a zinnia starts to seriously outgrow a 5x5, I do have some 8x8 pots that I re-pot to.

Your coleus has an unusual flecked color pattern, including dark purple spots.

" One shows two young Zinnia haageana plants with different foliage layouts (one has all its leaves in small but cobby triplets, the other in large but lanky pairs). "

Although I am not experienced with Z. haageana, the pairs leaves seem normal, but the triplets are unusual and worthy of treating as a breeder zinnia for that reason. Do you intend to stay with Z. haageana exclusively, or do you consider "branching out" to Z. elegans and Z. hybrida (Whirligig, etc) ?

" The other picture is a mutt that I grew several years ago. I'm not sure what its parentage might have been but it looks like it might have been plucked by finches. "

It looks like something removed a lot of material. I am including a "blow-up" from your photo of the affected region. Click on it for a larger view.

I have had large wooly worms eat out a big section of a zinnia bloom and leave a big gap something like that. But there are mysteries in your photo. For one thing, there is no obvious removal of seeds, and finches are seed eaters and tend to leave a naked or exposed bloom core behind. Another mystery is the tubular stubs in the denuded region. Those are not consistent with petal bases (there are a few petal stubs in the lower right) or of normal pollen florets. And they have odd grooved ends that look like they might be "natural" terminations to the tubes, rather than bitten ends. I am afraid that "mutt" zinnia remains an enigmatic mystery. It probably is a Z. elegans or possibly a Z. hybrida. More later. You are most welcome as a New Member here.

ZM

Yes, I have had tubular-looking petals before but I don't really care for them. To be honest, I have also had what I think are uprolled petals and I'm not sure that I have distinguished between tubular and uprolled. I have never made an effort to keep either one.

This coming spring I plan to plant some whirligigs and maybe cactus varieties, so I do want to keep growing Z. elegans. As far as I remember this is my first time growing Z. haageana.

Jai_Ganesha said:As far as I remember this is my first time growing Z. haageana.

Hi Jai,

So, what variety or varieties of Z. haageana are you growing?

" I have had tubular-looking petals before but I don't really care for them. To be honest, I have also had what I think are uprolled petals and I'm not sure that I have distinguished between tubular and uprolled. I have never made an effort to keep either one. "

Well, it makes sense that if you don't like tubular or uprolled zinnias that you would not have made an effort to keep them. Admittedly, they are not too spectacular looking. I knew that tubulars existed from a report of one and a fuzzy picture of it on Dave's Garden. I wanted one simply because they were different. So when one appeared in my garden, I instantly knew what it was, and made it a priority in my zinnia breeding.

I also encountered extreme uprolls on a forum, and I really liked their appearance and started looking for them in my zinnias. So far I really haven't gotten a strain of extreme uprolls going, but I still look for extreme uproll tendencies in my recombinants.

My original preference and goal was extreme downroll petals, which also give the petals a tube-like structure, but with the advantage that the color is on the outside. I referred to these as "spider flowered" after another flower by the same name -- I don't remember whether it was a chrysanthemum or an aster or what. These are a couple of cactus flowered zinnias with spider flower tendencies.

One consequence of narrow petals is that you can "see through" the bloom, a feature that I like that is fairly uncommon in zinnia blooms. I also liked bicolored zinnias (Whirligig, Merry-Go-Round, etc) and envisioned a very dark spider flowered bloom with white tips. At dusk they would look a bit like fireworks bursts. As things developed, zinnias showed me other novel looks that I pursued instead. For one thing, some Whirligigs had slight "teeth" on their petal ends, and I pursued that by intercrossing and reselecting the toothies. There was no mutation involved as such. Just an increasingly emphasized feature.

Ruffled petals are currently of interest to me. Mainly because some zinnias have showed those to me and the effect seemed worth pursuing to a greater degree. So instead of setting goals, zinnias have been showing me new features to pursue. A back burner goal I have is simply much larger zinnia blooms. More later. I think we are due for a snow in a couple of days. Wintery weather makes me appreciate my indoor zinnia project even more.

ZM

Those are impressive specimens!

It's not that I DISLIKE tubes/rolls (I don't), I just prefer to let them bloom however they want without regard to keeping X, Y, or Z.

Do you know what a cactus flowered zinnia combined with rolls/tubes would look like? Just curious.

My Z. haageana seeds are the Nth generation of Persian carpet that I bought from somebody in Kentucky. So I'm not sure if they're still Persian carpet or not. I guess we will see. I also got some cactus flowered zinnia seeds today and I am going to set up a second grow area this weekend.

I saw on another forum where you were talking about seed shape. I'm going to examine the shapes and plant the most interesting ones. If I successfully raise them both (haageana and elegans) to bloom I may try crossing them just to see what happens. I imagine it's easier to use male haageeana parts to female elegans due to size, right?

Hi Jai,

" Do you know what a cactus flowered zinnia combined with rolls/tubes would look like? Just curious. "

I don't know about extreme roll x cactus crosses, since I don't have any purified extreme rolls. I have made several cactus x tubular crosses, with several different type results. Some are just different looking tubular zinnias. Some strongly suggest the possibility of new petal forms, part tubular and part "open".

I am just beginning to see the results of those crosses and, as they say, I "expect the unexpected".

" My Z. haageana seeds are the Nth generation of Persian carpet that I bought from somebody in Kentucky. So I'm not sure if they're still Persian carpet or not. "

There are some new Zinnia haageana cultivars you might want to try. One is Jazzy Mix from Burpee:

http://www.burpee.com/flowers/...

Another is Aztec Sunset. It is one of the Mexican zinnia cultivars offered by Swallowtail.

https://www.swallowtailgardens...

Aztec Sunset and color selections from it are low growing zinnias, which might fit in with your indoor growing conditions.

" If I successfully raise them both (haageana and elegans) to bloom I may try crossing them just to see what happens. I imagine it's easier to use male haageeana parts to female elegans due to size, right? "

That cross has been successful in the past, so it is definitely worth a try. Just to be "on the safe side" I would try the cross both ways, and don't expect it to be a "pushover". The Z. haageana flower parts, both the pollen florets and the stigmas, are considerably smaller than Z. elegans. My few attempts failed.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Thank you. Copy writers have a way of making their seeds sound like the best thing on earth so I'm not sure I 100% trust what I read (they are, after all, selling something!). In your opinion what would you say are the realistic differences between the different cultivars of Zinnia haageana?

Hi Jai,

" In your opinion what would you say are the realistic differences between the different cultivars of Zinnia haageana? "

The Aztec Sunsets have won the FleuroSelect Award, so they have made an impression with knowledgeable gardeners.

https://fleuroselect.com/award...

The Aztec Sunsets are bred to be a short zinnia, so their use would be primarily in landscape beds, and not as cut flowers.

The Jazzy Mix appears to be a re-selected improved Persian Carpet strain.

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/flo...

I suspect that the original Persian Carpet strain several decades ago was as good as Jazzy, maybe better, but seed growers unfortunately usually let zinnia strains "run out" in poorly rogued fields. There might be some other Mexican zinnias that I don't know about that would be competitive with Jazzy. I know there is/was a tetraploid Z. haageana.

A few years ago I grew a few Aztec Sunsets indoors, in an attempt to cross the deep purple color into my genetic mix.

That project failed. Many many decades ago there was a Zinnia elegans variety named Black Ruby, and it was extremely dark. In warm incandescent light it actually did appear to be black. I guess you could say that a Black Zinnia is one of my zinnia breeding goals.

ZM

Here's a related question. What are the actual differences between the carousel and the whirligig varieties?

Jai_Ganesha said:Here's a related question. What are the actual differences between the carousel and the whirligig varieties?

Hi Jai,

Carousel was contemporary to the variety Merry-Go-Round, and the two may have actually been the same. I grew Merry-Go-Round before it (and Carousel) were apparently discontinued, and my plants were in the 2 to 3 foot class, distinctly taller and wider than the Whirligigs. Some of my recombinant zinnias today have Merry-Go-Rounds as distant ancestors.

ZM

Oh. I don't know how "discontinued" it is because I just ordered some on an auction site.

Maybe I'll get something entirely different!

I have some more questions about how you do things.

A. When you plant outdoors in the spring, I know you over-plant (over-crowd) and then thin plants heavily once blooms start coming in. How close together are your initial plantings?

B. Do you sterilize your indoor growing medium?

C. Where do you get the 5" orchid pots?

D. Do you use a fan for indoor plants to keep air circulation up?

Hi Jai,

" A. When you plant outdoors in the spring, I know you over-plant (over-crowd) and then thin plants heavily once blooms start coming in. How close together are your initial plantings? "

Depending on how severe I plan to cull them, 2 inches to 4 inches apart. If I think they are really "good" or I don't have a lot of their seeds, I can increase that to 6 inches apart. Culling is almost always done, sometimes severe culling.

" B. Do you sterilize your indoor growing medium? "

No. The Premier Pro-Mix that I use comes sterile in the compressed bale. However, zinnia seeds are potential bearers of seed-borne diseases, so I do include a little Physan 20 in the water that I water the germinating medium with.

" C. Where do you get the 5" orchid pots? "

My clear orchid pots are just 3.25 inches square, 3.25 Inch Clear Plastic Orchid Pot with UV Inhibitor, Part Number: #3.25NCUV, from Chula Orchids. Despite their UV inhibitor, don't leave them out in the sun for a year, because that will ruin them (make them VERY brittle). They are good for many years of indoors use.

https://www.chulaorchids.com/c...

My 5 inch square pots are not orchid pots, but are black pots from McConkey. I did purchase them by the case, because they are much cheaper per pot that way. They were a good buy, and have been very re-usable simply by washing them up for re-use every year. Sunlight and UV exposure do not seem to hurt them. They are flexible and seemingly indestructible.

https://www.mcconkeyco.com/55-...

" D. Do you use a fan for indoor plants to keep air circulation up? "

Yes. I also have a variable exhaust fan that I use to slowly change the air in the utility room.

We are getting a light snow here. Time for some more indoor zinnia gardening.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Most of my plants are in my basement but I decided to move my zinnias upstairs into my spare bedroom so that I can keep check on them more frequently.

They are on my smallest plant shelf for now and this shelf has only fluorescent lights (no LEDs).

In the Christmas containers are the Mexican Zinnia haageana, in the paper cups are planted scabious zinnias ( on one side of the stick) and cactus zinnias (on the other side).

In the biodegradable pot I have a morning glory species.

Hi Jai,

I am glad to see that you are including some Z. elegans in your project. That will give abundant opportunities to attempt the interspecific elegans X haageana cross. And the scabious elegans are an excellent choice for "spicing up" your zinnia flower forms.

My entire zinnia project fits on a single shelf at the present time, and my zinnias are not quite as far along as yours. I started planting them December 1, but I am continuing to plant them.

It's fun to futz with zinnias when the weather is so Winterish outside. We got a good snow cover, and the temperature went below zero last night. I did deploy a space heater in the utility room just as "insurance".

Your indoor project looks great. It was smart to move the zinnias upstairs, because they benefit from a daily inspection. This time of year indoor humidities can drop very low and zinnias can "dry out" quicker than you expect. I water mine almost daily.

ZM

I have had to water mine daily, too. That has surprised me. My ivy plants in the windowsill do not dry out as quickly.

To be honest, I don't really like what I've seen of the scabious flower form. I am just growing them to see what happens. On scabious zinnias does the pollen actually come from the petal-like structures in the center which have changed color?

Hi Jai,

" To be honest, I don't really like what I've seen of the scabious flower form. "

And you may be in for some more disappointments from the scabious zinnias. They have a reputation of not being true to form. Many years ago the first scabious zinnias I grew had maybe one in twenty that were true scabious, with the other nineteen being small semi-double zinnias. That is a dismal performance for a commercial zinnia variety.

I understand that in recent years that situation has improved some, but scabious strains still tend toward frequent off-type specimens. As an amateur zinnia breeder, I took the optimistic "the glass is one-twentieth full" approach, and crossed that one-in-twenty good one with cactus flowered zinnias. And I did get some very pleasing results.

" I am just growing them to see what happens. "

That is an excellent scientific attitude.

" On scabious zinnias does the pollen actually come from the petal-like structures in the center which have changed color? "

Yes indeed. Those central floral parts are actually a mound of petal-colored pollen florets, complete with internal pollen producing anther bundles. The classic scabiosa flowered zinnia has a single row of conventional petals, called "guard petals", topped with a mound of scabious colored florets. In some scabious zinnias the guard petals are so short that they are basically hidden by the mound of scabious florets.

The real value of scabiosa flowered zinnias is in what they can do in crosses. They can do a lot of stuff. One of my favorite scabious hybrids looked like a water lily.

Its scabious florets were yellowish and normal sized, but its guard petals were gigantic. Scabious hybrids with longer, slimmer guard petals can look rather like an echinacea.

Scabious genes can produce some surprising recombinations in zinnias. Another less dramatic feature is their plant habit, which tends to be much more branched than conventional zinnias. I think they have great potential for improving zinnia plants.

Be prepared to discard off-type scabious zinnias, but know that the on-type ones can participate in some interesting hybridizations.

ZM

I am definitely prepared. Especially indoors, I don't want to grow too many so I will err on the side of heavy selection.

I think I would probably cull all three of those you pictured above.

I have a background in small animal genetics and we have to do the same thing to keep any given line as pure as possible. I'm not at all afraid to completely scrap 95% or whatever it takes.