Hi Jack,

" Would root disturbance in general cause this? I did recently transplant them into their current containers but I would have thought it'd show up sooner (it's been...oh, about 2 weeks I guess). "

Probably not. Wilting due to transplanting or re-potting root damage usually shows up on the day of the disturbance and the plant has either died or recovered within a week. One advantage of the "clear" pots that I use is that I can see the root activity at the sides of the pots. I have observed that zinnia roots can grow a visible considerable amount in 24 hours.

Oddly, it seems that most of this growth occurs at night or during their dark period. I am wondering if that is just an illusion, or a "real thing". Similarly, it seems that most of my germinating seedlings emerge at night. I don't have an explanation for that.

ZM

ZenMan said:I am wondering if that is just an illusion, or a "real thing". Similarly, it seems that most of my germinating seedlings emerge at night. I don't have an explanation for that.

ZM

It could be both--slightly elevated growth overnight plus the illusion because you're not sitting there in the dark watching them (presumably, haha).

Well, my order for calcium nitrate was canceled by the vendor "due to a lack of availability." Where do you get yours?

Are there any easily-obtained alternatives?

Hi Jack,

" Well, my order for calcium nitrate was canceled by the vendor "due to a lack of availability." Where do you get yours? "

The problem is in buying small enough a quantity. Most suppliers think you are a commercial grower. My last order was in 2008 and it was for a "minimum" amount of 5 pounds. For a home hobbyist that is probably a lifetime supply.

" Are there any easily-obtained alternatives? "

There are no usable alternatives. Calcium nitrate is the only water-soluble form of calcium for plant nutrition. Calcium chloride is water soluble, but in order to get enough Calcium to your plants, you would dose them with a toxic amount of chloride.

I notice there are now several Calcium nitrate suppliers on Amazon, and if I were buying today, I would probably get

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W4BI0SC/

Another possibility that I might get would be

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GVFMMFS/

Calcium nitrate is extremely hygroscopic, and if it is exposed to air for any time at all, it will turn into a liquid. Still usable, but messy. (My bag is now sitting in a plastic ice cream bucket, with a significant amount of it in the liquid form) That is why the three separate bottles might be preferable to 8 ounces in a Ziploc bag (or the equivalent).

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Happy New Year, Everyone !




ZM

With the same discussion happening on 3 forums I can't remember where I initially posted the picture of the seedling with three cotyledons.

I want to post an updated picture. As you can see, it has kept the same plan of three all the way up. It is my most robust plant at this point.

Jai_Ganesha said:I want to post an updated picture. As you can see, it has kept the same plan of three all the way up. It is my most robust plant at this point.

Hi Jack,

That plan-of-three zinnia is a real "keeper" and it could be the basis for a strain of 3Z (threesie) zinnias. I think that 3Z zinnias would look much better as plants in the landscape, and it would be difficult to overestimate the potential significance of getting 3Z progeny and a good inventory of seed from that specimen.

As I mentioned on a different website, I currently have a couple of zinnia seedlings that have unusual long thin leaves.

Those unusual plants may turn out to have disadvantages, but I plan to grow them to see what they can do, because they do differ considerably from "regular" zinnias. They resemble your Haageana plants more than my usual Zinnia hybrida plants.

I am going to be busy tomorrow re-potting some of my zinnias and washing more pots for further re-potting. And I will watch some of the Rose Parade on TV. More later.

ZM

I have never had a television so I am not 100% sure what the Rose Parade is. But I have heard several people talking about it.

Do you happen to know if there has ever been any kind of scientific literature written about whether or not Z. haageana is naturally lighter in color than Z. violacea? In my experience, it seems like some of the Z. haageanas are lighter but not all of them, whereas all the Z. violacea are a rich, heavy, green.

In other words, there appears to be more variation of foliage color in Z. haageana but that is solely my own observation and I'm wondering if anybody else has ever noticed it or noted it.

Hi Jack,

" I have never had a television so I am not 100% sure what the Rose Parade is. "

It is an annual new years parade in California that has the rule that the floats can only be decorated with natural materials, including flowers, but anything natural is "legal". They do an amazing job creating colorful floats while adhering to the "all natural" rule. More info available on google.

I have to say that you surprised me with that "no television ever" revelation. I am tempted to say that you haven't missed much, but along with the "vast wasteland" characterization, there have been some useful forms of communication on TV, despite the shameless commercialization. I suppose we should remain wary of a 1984-style "Big Brother" aspect developing, but so far the main problem I see with TV is the advertising. TV advertising does have obvious and not-so-obvious abuses and seeks to profit commercially from various forms of persuasion that could border on "mind control". You are certainly entitled to not have a television, and I won't try to change your mind on that.

" Do you happen to know if there has ever been any kind of scientific literature written about whether or not Z. haageana is naturally lighter in color than Z. violacea? "

I haven't seen any literature article discussing that, but I haven't made a specific literature (or google) search on the subject.

" In my experience, it seems like some of the Z. haageanas are lighter but not all of them, whereas all the Z. violacea are a rich, heavy, green. "

I think it is possible that, as a species, Zinnia violacea may have darker green foliage than Zinnia haageana. That said, I have seen a lot of variation in the green foliage of Z. violacea due to nutritional affects (abundance or shortage of elements like iron, magnesium, phosphorous, nitrogen, etc.) And I have not had a lot of experience with Z. haageana under varying nutrition conditions. I think it would be interesting and potentially useful to do a detailed comparative anatomy study of the two species. I am a big fan of situation awareness in all of its forms.

ZM

What happens if the zinnias get too much light, either in intensity or in duration (assuming that all other variables like water and nutrition are OK)?

Hi Jack,

" What happens if the zinnias get too much light, either in intensity or in duration (assuming that all other variables like water and nutrition are OK)? "

Well, zinnias thrive in full sun, so it is not likely that they will get too much light intensity.

As for duration, in indoor lighting you do have timers on your lighting so it is possible that you could set your lighting for continuously on. That would deprive the zinnias of a dark period. Many plants, possibly most plants, do use the dark period for certain internal processes. It is probable that zinnias do at least benefit from a dark period. Maybe it is a requirement, but I don't know. I have my timers set for 16 hours of light and 8 hours of dark, purely for my own convenience.

It would be interesting to know how many of hours of dark, if any, that zinnias require, or at least benefit from.

From a scientific standpoint, it would be interesting to study the effects of very high light intensities, higher than full sunlight, on plants, including zinnias. Some high tech light sources can exceed full sunlight intensities, I understand. But none that I have. My T8s, even overdriven, are hard put to put 1000 foot candles on the zinnia leaves. That is a small fraction of full sunlight.

ZM

Update: my plan-of-three Zinnia haageana is still the picture of health. It is proving so spiritually rewarding to grow them indoors. I can safely say that I have never so closely monitored zinnias in many years of growing them.

In this second picture, is that a tiny flower forming in the center? I can't quite tell if it is a flower or more leaves.

Hi Jack,

Your Threesie zinnia plant is beautiful !!! This is so exciting -- I have never seen a 3Z remain so consistent. If its seeds produce 3Z plants, you will be well on your way to creating a race of 3Z Haageana zinnias, and I think those could be crossed with Violacea to create a corresponding race of threesie Z. hybridas.

If, heaven forbid, something should happen to your plan-of-three Haageana, at least we will know that Haageanas can "do" threesie better than Violaceas, and that alone could be helpful in getting 3Z strains of zinnias.

Can't tell yet if that central area is producing a bud. A bud will be a little round ball in its early stages. Incidentally, can you tell yet if the side branches are going to be 3Z or the regular 2Z ? In the past I have seen 3Z side branches on a 2Z central stalk. I think it would be super neat to have 3Z branches on a 3Z central stalk. That could give zinnia plants a whole new look.

I am beginning to suspect that you are better at growing zinnias indoors than I am. Some of my zinnias look rather distressed -- probably from some nutrient imbalance. Either too little of some key element, or possibly too much.

You are doing great. Keep us posted. But give your zinnias top priority over us. Raising zinnias indoors in the Winter is an accomplishment.

ZM

Thank you very much. I'm finding it a lot easier than I anticipated for this specific plant. A couple other plants do look worse off, although their care has been identical.

Yes, the plan-of-three goes onto every branch. But it's surprisingly hard to photograph because (for now) the side branches are covered by the top branches. And sometimes when the three side leaves pop out they look out-of-balance as though they're not sure which way to grow. I don't know how else to describe it.

I wonder what causes the change in number of leaves? I would not be surprised if it were an unstable genetic mutation or even if it were caused by a virus or bacteria affecting the parent plant (epigenetic). But I have not been able to find any information as to the cause, either way.

Hi Jack,

" I wonder what causes the change in number of leaves? I would not be surprised if it were an unstable genetic mutation... "

I am thinking genetics, and hopefully stable genetics. And if your Threesie also has 3Z side branches, as it apparently does, then you have a <u>very rare</u<> "pure" form. I have seen some 3Z stalks, and some 3Z branches, but never the two together in a completely 3Z plant.

The next hurdle is to get a lot of progeny from it. Some of its progeny may not get the 3Z genetics, but hopefully some of the selfed progeny will. It is very possible that more than one gene is involved, and all of them may be recessive. But that doesn't make it impossible to get a pure strain with all-threesie plants. More later.

ZM

This packet is way more seeds than I realized. So I am definitely going to over plant now.

Or I may try to sort through them and find just the biggest and healthiest seeds to plant. I don't know yet. I do know that there is no way I could grow half of the seeds to flower and still have room for my other varieties!

Hi Jack,

Chuckle. That is a one-ounce packet, which is a sixteenth of a pound, which, as you say, is a lot of zinnia seeds. Incidentally, good picture of the packet. It is like having it here, and under a magnifying glass. Very clear closeup.

" Or I may try to sort through them and find just the biggest and healthiest seeds to plant. "

That's what I would do. You now have a nearly bottomless supply of Haageana genes in a much-more-convenient-to-handle form than the tiny Haageana species seeds.

Some of my indoor zinnias are starting to bloom. I am still quite busy re-potting and washing pots, (and even planting some more seeds) but I will try to post pictures in the near future.

It is supposed to warm up a bit today and melt off most of our snow cover. More later. Keep us posted.

ZM

What causes a leaf to be serrated like this?

(Same plant, different angles.)

Hi Jack,

" What causes a leaf to be serrated like this? "

I can't tell for sure whether it is genetic, or physiological. As tight as the bud is to the leaf, it could just be pressure from the bud as the leaf grows. However, there are a number of genetic factors controlling zinnia leaves. I think it might be desirable to have all zinnia leaves be serrated, just to give them a more interesting shape.

Incidentally, great closeup photography. The leaf hairs show in marvelous detail.

Some of my indoor zinnias are in bloom now. This is the shelf at the far end of the utility room, and a closer view of the marigold-like bloom.

Several of my blooming zinnias will be culled. Fortunately I have a lot more zinnias "coming on". I will try to get some better pictures.

ZM

The yellow marigold-like bloom reminds me of Play-Doh spaghetti noodles!