You can also rub the seeds between 2 pieces of sandpaper gently. For DL I would use 220 grit or so. I often use sandpaper.

Another method to remove hard outer seed shells is to use some chemical. Some use acid, but I never have. I have though used Stump Remover - the main ingredient being Potassium Nitrate. I tried it 2 years ago on an impenetrable seed and it worked. But not as well in that case as using a dremel tool. :-))

I have used an emery board on occasion, that works too.

DavidLMO said:You can also rub the seeds between 2 pieces of sandpaper gently. For DL I would use 220 grit or so. I often use sandpaper.

Mike Huben used 80 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper in a glass jar and shook the seeds in the jar for one minute in the experiment I mentioned above.

DavidLMO said:Another method to remove hard outer seed shells is to use some chemical. Some use acid, but I never have. I have though used Stump Remover - the main ingredient being Potassium Nitrate. I tried it 2 years ago on an impenetrable seed and it worked. But not as well in that case as using a dremel tool. :-))

If anyone is thinking of trying an acid with daylily seeds my suggestion would be to test it on a very small batch of seeds with which you don't expect to win the Stout Medal In my daylily seed experiments I've tested various methods and a dilute vinegar (acid) treatment appeared to kill the seeds. They certainly didn't germinate anyway. Ditto for a standard hot water treatment. Since the seed coat is not impervious to water that may be why. Daylily seed coats were also found not to contain germination inhibitors (Griesbach).

I was NOT suggesting to use Nitric acid (or any other strong acid) nor Stump Remover on DL seeds. If I left that impression, please erase it. The coating on DL seeds is not that hard compared with some seeds.

I have a question. I received some seeds just recently and I noticed some came in the baggies already starting to germinate. I added spring water and hydrogen peroxide to each baggie to help them germinate.

My question .... How long do you leave the seeds floating in the baggies before removing them to sow them in potting soil? I have a couple that have roots extending from the seeds. Should I plant them in the potting mix or wait a bit longer by keeping them in the H2O and H2O2?

One acid that can be used is Gibberellic Acid. Used for germination - not scarifying. Some discussion here:

The thread "Seedling 6 weeks to scape!" in Daylilies forum

I have had good luck using GA on some hard to germinate seeds - though I do not use it a lot.

Becky - a general rule of thumb when germinating in baggies or paper towels - if roots start - plant.

I agree with David, there's no advantage, and possibly a disadvantage, to leaving them in the solution (or on paper towels) once they have started to, or have, germinated. I would plant them right away, but not everyone does.

Re gibberellic acid, that's one of the few methods I haven't tested. Several years ago a hybridizer told me he'd tried GA-3 on daylily seeds, having used it successfully on some other plant seeds, and although germination was prompt the resulting seedlings were stunted for a long time and, although they got going eventually, even by the next year they were behind in comparison to his untreated seedlings.

It's possible for some batches of daylily seeds to have little or no seed dormancy, and they'll germinate right away as soon as planted, no damp chilling or other pre-treatment needed to get them synchronized.. It's too bad we can't tell which they are in advance!

Yeah GA can cause strange side effects.

For those unfamiliar with GA - here is a site that explains it in fairly simple detail.

http://www.gardenguides.com/80...

I wish I could find the entire report for this one:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/...

I still have 4 out of 7 seeds of my cross that refuse to germinate. They are now back in peroxide solution. The other three germinated in september-october

Some refuse to cooperate with peroxide in which case putting them back in the fridge for three weeks to a month (not in liquid) may inspire them. It's also possible they are not viable. Sometimes daylily seeds are missing the embryo but the only way to find that out is by cutting them open, after which they're definitely not viable Are they reasonably plump and the peroxide is somewhere between 1:5 and 1:10 to water?

I won't cut them open
I don't know if they are plump, what should I look for? I put them in th fridge (damp) but after few days I saw some spot of mold on the paper, so I took them out, checked and they were not infected by mold, so I put them back in peroxide. The solution is 1:9 as once you told me.
I guess I will put them back in the fridge, I don't kno whay there was mold I never had it happen before!

Was the mold associated with a seed or well away from it? If it was associated with a seed it may be that seed was not viable. The seeds don't need to be fat but they shouldn't look like a pancake. Can you post a picture of them?

sooby said:I agree with David, there's no advantage, and possibly a disadvantage, to leaving them in the solution (or on paper towels) once they have started to, or have, germinated. I would plant them right away, but not everyone does.

A seed uses up vast stores of energy to throw leaves and/or roots. In order to continue adequately, it needs soil.

sooby said:
It's possible for some batches of daylily seeds to have little or no seed dormancy, and they'll germinate right away as soon as planted, no damp chilling or other pre-treatment needed to get them synchronized.. It's too bad we can't tell which they are in advance!

Yep. And THAT is very frustrating at times.

@sooby, here's a pic of the seeds.
The mold was in tiny tiny spots and not on the seeds, maybe I just got it in time. I damped a paper towel before, but maybe the last time it was too damp.

I still can't get why some seeds germinate fast and some other don't, genetics it's (should) be the same.

As far as I can tell they don't look too flat to germinate. Since they are already hydrated from the peroxide maybe put them in the fridge in a container with a dry piece of kitchen paper towel. Or, better in my opinion, plant them in damp vermiculite in a pot, put the pot in a plastic bag and put that in the fridge. Give them four weeks in the fridge, then take them out.

Seed dormancy prevents seeds from germinating all at once or germinating before winter which could kill young seedlings. It's a survival mechanism, staggered germination increases the odds that at least some young seedlings will encounter good growing conditions. Others germinate once they have been damp chilled because that tells them they've been through a winter and now it is a nice safe warm spring. So when we do the damp chilling and then move them to room temperature we're tricking them into "thinking" they've done winter and now it's spring and safe to germinate. If you don't leave them in the fridge long enough they might not count it as winter.

There are other seed dormancy mechanisms and ways of breaking them too but to concentrate on daylilies, they seem to have staggered dormancy, i.e. they germinate erratically unless we do something to break the dormancy (like damp chilling). If they aren't tricked into thinking they've done winter and it's now spring they may still germinate but it can take weeks or months for some, while others will germinate quickly. That way if the early ones get killed by something, there are still more waiting to take their place. Seed dormancy is very common in nature but not so much in the packets of seeds that you buy in a store - those may have had seed dormancy bred out. Daylily breeders may eventually do the same thing if they only keep the first seedlings to come up in a batch that was not stratified and discard the stragglers.

Just be glad you're not hybridizing chickweed, its seeds can be dormant for 20 years

20 years for chickweed?? Oh my! I think that grows abundantly as a weed on Dave's property!

I have a question. A very generous member here shared some great seeds (crosses) with me recently. I received them in the Christmas mail in a bubble envie. They came from up north so not sure how many days they were in the mail. When they arrived, I noted that one was sprouting a root. When I looked closer at the different baggies of crosses that I was sent, I noticed many of the seeds were cracked. I believe they may have gotten crushed in all the Christmas mail. I was disappointed, but knew that some were probably okay. So I used the hydrogen peroxide and water in each baggie. I figured maybe I'd get a few of them to germinate and the crushed ones would just eventually rot (and then I would know for sure they were damaged/dead).

Well, after 1 day in the water, all but 2 germinated roots. Seriously! I have never had this happen before. When I looked closely at all the cracked seeds, I could see this gray matter inside the cracks. I know what a germinating seed looks like and it is usually a white tip poking through. That was NOT the case with the cracked seeds. So I am thinking I was able to salvage the seeds by putting them in water right away before the embryo dried out and died. My question .... is there a lining "inside" the seed coat? Could that have been the gray matter I was seeing? With the seeds cracked, the lining was able to absorb the moisture from the H2O2 water and was able to germinate rapidly. (1 day in the water!)

I am so glad I decided I had nothing to lose by trying this to perhaps save some of the seeds, not realizing that I managed to save ALL except the 2 that have not done anything yet. I will keep those 2 in the water for a while longer in hopes that they too will germinate. Those 2 were damaged the worst. One seed has 2 cracks in the coat, the other has 1 crack.

To say that I am surprised by my good fortune is an understatement!!! I can't believe they still germinated after being damaged in the mail!!!

great!!

Yeah, I didn't mean all chickweed seeds are dormant for 20 years, but a percentage of their seeds can remain viable that long (or even longer) in the soil which is one reason it is hard to get rid of.

I don't know what the grey matter would be, I've never seen it in a daylily seed except ones that had no embryo and appeared to be deteriorating. There's the outer black seed coat, there's a papery brown layer under that, then the white seed. I wonder if it was damage from being squished in the mail, but not rotting far enough inside to kill the embryo? The embryo is largely protected by the endosperm that surrounds it and a daylily embryo will germinate without the endosperm if removed from the seed.

For Sabrina, this article may give you an overview on seed dormancy in general if you're interested:
http://www.passionflow.co.uk/d...

Sue - Thank you! Do you know what color the endorsperm is? Could it be gray? Or maybe being so small, I was unable to correctly see the color. Perhaps it was the papery brown layer under the seed coat and just looked to my eyes like it was a gray color but was really brown instead?