Dennis

I think the goals you have set are quite attainable. There are many hybridizers who are making progress toward the big full blown polka dotted daylily so just gather together the best of what you can find and start crossing them together.....or buy seeds where someone else has done that. Freckled spots are showing up in many hybridizers' gardens and I find the ones that dot around edges are quite intriguing. They just showed up in my garden a few years ago and I believe they can be stabilized fairly easily. Dave Mussar had a wonderful article in the Journal about hybridizing for spots and dots, streaking, etc. It's an exciting endeavor. The spots that are showing up here are more subtle darker pigmentation around edges.

Maurice

Years ago, you commented on how this phenomenon is weather related and I have always thought that to be true. Over the years I've had "split" flowers such as this one that will do this once, but never again where you see differing pigment of half of a petal like the lower petal of this seedling. Could you comment on this again as it shows up in a lot of gardens. Isn't this likely to be caused by a weather event during bud formation?

Davi said:Could you comment on this again as it shows up in a lot of gardens. Isn't this likely to be caused by a weather event during bud formation?

Simple Answer:
Yes, it could be caused by a weather event during bud formation.
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Every characteristic can be caused in one of three fundamental ways:
1) only genetically
2) only environmentally
3) through both genetic and environment interacting together.
Each time a flower has a split colour or one or more segments or sectors of a different colour we have to ask what caused it this time.
Sometimes the answer will be that it is a one-off caused by an environmental effect during bud development, for example related to the weather.
Sometimes the answer will be that it is a one-off event caused by a genetic effect during bud development.
Sometimes the answer may be that it is a one-off event caused by a genetic effect that was itself caused by an environmental effect.
Each time it occurs investigating all the circumstances may help decide between several different possible answers as to the cause that time.
When I look at the sector in this particular flower I would start by asking do you know the plant's parentage? Is it possible that the plant has both a yellow-flowered daylily and a red-flowered daylily in its ancestry? I would ask, has this plant ever done this before? Is it a diploid or a tetraploid?
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In this particular flower, as the flower develops in bud, the genes to make the red pigments (anthocyanins) have to be turned on in the petal. Most likely, once turned on in a cell all the descendants of that cell will have the gene turned on. If the gene is not turned on then all the descendants will have the gene turned off. Presumably there is a time during the development of the bud when there are only two cells that will be ancestors of all the cells in the upper layer (epidermis) of one petal. That layer has the anthocyanin pigments. A gene that is necessary to be able to make the red pigment must be turned on in both those cells so that both halves of that petal will be red. Something caused that gene to only be turned on in one cell or to be turned off after having been turned on in one of those two cells. That something could have been genetic or it could have been environmental (for example, the weather).

We may be able to get clues about whether the effect is genetically or environmentally caused. If the plant was from a long line of red x red crosses and the offspring from those crosses were reds then it is more likely that the effect was environmental. If the plant was from a cross of a red with a yellow and among its siblings there were both reds and yellows then there is a possibility that the effect is at least partly genetic. If the plant has done this before, or if some of the plant's siblings also sometimes show similar effects then there is a better possibility that at least part of the cause is genetic.

Sometimes it may be that both the environment and genetic effects must act together to cause the characteristic.

With our current knowledge of genetics in daylilies (lack of) it requires detective work and many assumptions, etc. to get some idea of what might be happening to cause the sectoring.

Maurice, I have a seedling that was blooming pretty consistently double. I moved it to another location and it is almost always now blooming single. Would this then be considered environmental, soil differences???

Hemlady said:Maurice, I have a seedling that was blooming pretty consistently double. I moved it to another location and it is almost always now blooming single. Would this then be considered environmental, soil differences???

It might be.

There could be other environmental factors involved. We know it is not genetic. We know the environment is involved since that is all that has been changed. But unfortunately there are several factors that may be unrelated to the move that may be involved.
1) Yearly differences in any aspect of the weather. I am assuming that the seedling grew in one location only and then all of it was moved to another location and it is now growing in that location.
2) Changes in the development of the seedling as it aged and the crown and clump grew bigger.
3) Changes that are specific to the new location and that are different from the other location that are not necessarily soil related. For example temperature differences, light differences such as shading, competition differences from nearby plants, etc.
4) Changes related to the soil.

Thank you, Maurice.....you explained that quite well. I tend to write off a lot of unusual things as being weather related if I only see the characteristic once. Other things I see enough to know that something special is hiding out in all the genetic possibilities. For instance, I know that some day we will be seeing ruffles along the midribs of petals.....and also on the back of petals. Off center ruffles will appear along midribs that look like this



And here's a ruffle that appeared on the back of a petal.....Curt will have the last laugh on this because the only way to view them would be to have them on one of his "extreme pleats"....and I believe Curt is already seeing these backside ruffles. I hope I live long enough to see where this all ends up!!! Fun yet FRUSTRATING......because I don't have a "how to" book to follow!

And here's a ruffle that appeared on the back of a petal

Could that perhaps also be described as a wing or wings on the midrib or the back of the midrib?

I can think of them only as ruffles because they share some other features of ruffles....such as being rounded and having edges that are sometimes pie crusted or edged with gold or lemon..... and I believe they are capable of producing even more elaborate edges that include teeth, double edges, etc.as you would normally see along petal edges. They are different than the "fins" that you often see in cristate tissue arising from midribs and alongside midribs and projecting from throats. I get those, too. Ruffles appearing in odd places are becoming rather commonplace, I think, with hybridizers working with sculpts.

This a seedling under evaluation that pops out a random ruffle down the midrib quite often. I fully agree that you have to wait until the crowns are fully mature before you can tell what this daylily might do eventually. It is only on it's 2nd year and it might take 4 years. It is definitely a ruffle as it has the same serrated edge as the petals

Ok Judy, you have sure peaked my interest with that one ! I like the soft pink color too. I'm going to have some interesting dreams tonight.

That is quite interesting indeed! So what will such a bloom be called in the future?

Thanks Maurice.

Both locations for this seedling had a half a day of shade. The location where it bloomed double received the shade in the morning and then sun the rest of the day. The location I moved it to was just the opposite, morning sun and afternoon shade. Through the years the second location had a lot of soil amendments, but the first location did not.

Since we are showing some oddities, here is one that bloomed 2 years ago, showed the same markings on every bloom, but this picture shows the most extreme, and hasn't bloomed in since.




The lumpy waves on the front created the opposite effect on the back...more like cups or voids. I will see some kids next year, but I am more hopeful to see it bloom again. It is planted very close to a sidewalk, and at first I thought maybe it's roots were fighting with the soil medium for space, and the petal showed the struggle. Not a deep thinker here.

It is a cross I had done many times, and is really taking EMERALD STARBURST back to itself in using RFK. None of the other seedlings have this feature, in fact, SHALOTT is from the same cross. I was wondering if anybody has ever seen this look before?

John Peat had an introduction in 06 that he named MOVE OVER DOLLY because it had rather buxom protrusions on the petal surfaces in similar locations. It was sold as a novelty and I'm not sure if it ever performed like it did in his garden anywhere else. But I can see lots of interesting things happening on petal surfaces in the future. The teeth that appear randomly on surfaces other than edges will have similar coloration as the edges including multiple colors. An interesting concept would be to cover a petal surface with polka dot "teeth" or multiple ruffles running parallel....we could call it KATHY'S NIGHTMARE!!!

For the academics among us, a friend sent me this link to a model study being proposed by Robert Grant Downton from Oxford University who thinks these "on again-off again" events that happen in daylilies may have some serious applications....it's an interesting read:
http://aobpla.oxfordjournals.o...

kidfishing said:I have about 7500 dip seedlings that were planted this year in the garden or are growing in pots. First to see how many are there next spring and how many start blooming. Let's see, at one per every 16 ....
I will just wait and see.

Is that really all that survive? Eeesh! Is there a greater likelihood of survival if you're breeding mainly dormants in the north? (i.e. is the high mortality rate a possible consequence of evergreen genes being played out in colder climates where many evergreens don't do as well?) Is that rate for seed grown in regular soil? Will mine have a significantly better chance being in a raised garden bed with better soil? Oy....one out of 16 means I'll be lucky to have a small handful survive. I need to ask my honey to buy me a few acres of land some year....

Davi said:I'm seeing some pretty unusual things such as midrib cristation and ruffles on the BACK of petals, extreme pleats, toothy projections on petal surfaces.....weird, wacky things. One has to sort out if what you are seeing is just a weather related mutation or some hidden genotype that is trying to express itself. And stabilizing anything new so that it appears consistently takes many generations. But to me, that is what hybridizing means....moving daylilies forward to create things that do not now exist....not just crossing one pretty face with another pretty face to reinvent the wheel. And the possibilities are greater with tetraploids in a focused program. Of course, some of those "unpredictable" outcomes are not always pretty!!!

I think we had a thread about mid-summer that was dedicated to weird blooms...did you ever post in it? I'd love to see pictures of your "weird, wacky","not always pretty" blooms! One man's trash is another's treasure and you never know, you might find someone who is interested in the characteristics that are playing out in some of your seedlings...that generation might not be beautiful, but playing with the 'ugly' trait in a specific way might give rise to something really cool and really focused!

There have been numerous threads about odd or ugly blooms:

The thread "Oddities" in Daylilies forum
The thread "FFO uglies" in Daylilies forum
The thread "Which is the strangest DL for you?" in Daylilies forum

Davi said: An interesting concept would be to cover a petal surface with polka dot "teeth" or multiple ruffles running parallel....we could call it KATHY'S NIGHTMARE!!!

I realized after my last post (as I continued reading the last half of the first page and the second page...) that you guys DID post some pictures of wonky blooms. How wonderful.

@beckygardener - I believe one of the threads on weird blooms was one that you started, right? Do you have easy access to the link to it so that more of these awesome oddities can be posted to it?

These oddities in blooms are so interesting. What's impressive is that skilled development by hybridizers over time turn "awkward"-looking oddities into great-looking features.

Judy, once again your words are encouraging to me—

I heard that Dave Mussar has been trying for a very long time to improve on stippling but without much success. Purchasing seeds would be a great way to conveniently jump-start, and enhance, my hybridization program. Perhaps I’ll benefit from beginners luck!

I’m a fan of your cultivars. If you are going to compost a seedling who’s only flaw is scapes that are way to short keep me in mind—I’d love to take it off your hands

You mention that it sometimes is easy to stabilize a new trait. If only one cultivar is displaying the trait it’s not immediately clear to me how to stabilize it. Could you give me some insights into how that is done?

Dennis616 said:
I’m a fan of your cultivars. If you are going to compost a seedling who’s only flaw is scapes that are way to short keep me in mind—I’d love to take it off your hands

...and any that you don't want, I'll gladly accept!

I'm specifically breeding for shorter plants in some of my crosses because I want shorter plants. I'm trying to hybridize for daylilies with more landscape appeal (less so for the 'collector'), and there aren't very many options out there at the moment for people who want front-of-the-flower-bed daylilies; nothing like the number of taller varieties. I'm hoping to change that...I'd like to get some shorties with bigger blooms and shorter foliage so that the blooms sit just above the leaves.