Hello Y'all,

I am brand new to this forum so I suppose I'd better say hello and give some pertinent info about myself. I a 39yo man living in Baton Rouge, La. I believe this put me in Zone 8 (?). I am an amateur gardner and have been developing a butterfly garden for 3 years now, with some modest success. Mainly Monarchs, Eastern Black Swallowtails and Gulf Fritillarys. I've had many odd visitors, but these are the only 3 I can see going through all of their lifespans. Having said that, I am much more interested in trees. Hurricane Gustav (2008) took down 12 70' pines, broke a huge trunk from an oak (which had to be cut down), snapped a very tall (60') bald cypress of to about 15' (it has survived and is doing great), these big pines crushed a huge white dogwood and a large fig. I then had the remaining massive pines (about 5-6) cut down to avoid a repeat. It was truly a miracle that my home nor my neighbor's homes were hit. So, I have lots of rooms for trees.

I guess my first question is this: How might I go about establishing ginkgoes in my yard? I am cursed with HEAVY clay soil and have watched helplessly as ginkgo after ginkgo died. I tried many techniques, none worked. I won't say which as I'd like to hear unbiased strategies. I get A LOT of contradictory advice on this. Also, I cannot get a white dogwood to grow. I know that they certainly CAN, at least, grow in my yard. I'd like to put in a eucalyptus as well. I put one in and it seemed to be doing well, it grew quite a bit but is now failing.

Now for Jasmines. Will Jasmine; Maid of Orleans do alright where I'm at? What types of jasmines would do well here?

The biggie, but as I get contradictory advice I always ask. When is the best time to plant a tree? HOW to plant a tree in my clay, also. Mainly the timing here, though. When to plant bulbs, shrubs and vines as well?

Soil amendment? I get contradictory advice, here, too. What are y'all's ideas on whether and how to di it.

Thank You,
Pan

to ATP! I don't know anything about Ginkgo or Eucalyptus so I really can't help you there. It looks like you are located in the lower part of Zone 8b right on the edge of Zone 9a. I would think Dogwood do well for you. You said you have heavy clay which is what most of us on the Gulf Coast deal with, but what about what. I would think that it was fairly wet with your proximity to the Mississippi and the coast.

Hi Pan, and welcome Hope we can help you out here.

As you can see, I am in Florida, so my soil and climate are somewhat different than yours, but I have a couple of thoughts to offer: First one is that you said there was a huge dogwood tree crushed by one of the falling pines, right? So you absolutely know that dogwood will succeed in your yard. If it looks like a good place, I'd try planting another dogwood or two right where that old one was. You might have to chop out the stump and dig up some old roots, though.

You also know for sure that the pines and oak will succeed. Are you absolutely sure you want to struggle to grow ginkgo and eucalyptus? I've only seen them growing in drier climates like California and Utah where we used to live - don't know if they are good for Louisiana. Just because the tag says a tree will be "hardy in zone 8" doesn't mean it's going to be a good choice. The zone hardiness just tells you it will survive the average low winter temperatures you get. I'd recommend you walk the neighborhood and see what other trees are doing well close to you. They might be better suited to the heavy soil and humidity your yard has to offer.

Another word to the wise - just because you see those trees for sale at a garden center also does not mean they are a good choice. Places like Home Depot, Lowe's and Wal-Mart get shipped a lot of plants that are not suitable and should never be sold where the store is. They probably ship the same stuff to stores in Tenessee and North Carolina. Go to a good nursery and talk to someone who knows trees.

The other thing to watch out for is planting your trees so eventually they will grow up and shade your butterfly plants (which for the most part need sun to bloom). So you don't want to plant any trees too close to the south side of the butterfly garden, or too close in general, because a tree will spread its roots even further than its branches reach, and could eventually compete for water and nutrients with the butterfly garden. Make a plan and plant trees strategically so they will shade where you want them to, and also of course, not be too close to your house that they could eventually pose a danger when another hurricane happens along. You can't depend upon being lucky twice, right?

@RickCorey is our resident expert on amending heavy clay soil so I hope he will bring you some words of wisdom.

Planting trees in clay soil. Dig a hole. Dig it deeper. Deeper still. And wide. Wider. And you might want to dig the hole even deeper and sink some drainage tile filled with rock. The bottom of that would be 8 or so feet deep and the top be about 2 feet below grade in your planting hole. The planting hole should be amended. I like pine bark fines, cotton burr compost and mushroom compost. Of course composted cow manure.

Don't fill the bottom of any planting hole with rocks. Ever.

I am not familiar with your area or zone. I am in 5 B in NW Missouri. Here if you succeed in growing a Ginkgo to a foot or so in a pot it will usually make it in the ground. The same pretty much goes for White Dogwood. These have a tendency to die fairly easily in growth up to about 2 feet or so. I grow both of these and sell them at a farmers market.

Any tree planted in the ground should be protected from blasting summer sun in its first year.. This can be done by placing a wooden crate over them or standing on end to provide shade for part of the day. Mulch well in winter.

Newly planted trees should be watered often when it is hot and dry.

Early Fall is the best time to plant a tree. Don't do so in the middle of Summer unless you want to spend a huge amount of time caring for it. Early Spring is also good. Going into their first winter in the ground, be sure that trees are watered well and mulch with leaves to about 12 inches.

Good luck.

I agree with David that, if you are going to amend soil for trees, you have to think about drainage first.

DO NOT DO THIS:
Just dig a planting hole in the clay , amend it, and plant.

Any rain would fill that amended hole, displace all the air, drain VERY slowly, drown your tree's roots quickly, and kill the tree pretty quickly. Just like this:


So any time you plan to dig below grade in clay, heed David's advice and first assure drainage from the deepest part of that hole to some LOWER part of your yard!



So if you are going to amend deeply for trees, first assure the holes will drain down to some lower point that you don't mind accepting the runoff.

My experience is with amending finite, relatively shallow raised beds, (and planting shrubs for neighbors decades ago). So anything I say about trees should be viewed with skepticism.

But I have read advice about trees, that suggest tree roots spread SO far and deep that amending is a real challenge. The tree roots tend to fill any reasonably-sized amended hole rapidly, but then may NOT ever leave their planting soil and penetrate the soil outside the holes. If they do that, and the clay is quite hard, the trees might as well have been planted in a sunken pot the size of the amended hole.

Since it is impractical to amend the entire area that the roots will ever need to penetrate, maybe "blend" the amended soil in the planting hole with the surrounding clay. If the transition from good to bad soil is gradual, the roots are more likely to make the transition from pampered soil to clay.

We had dogwoods when I lived in Connecticut, and again in New Jersey. That soil was all un-amended clay soil with rocks - not TERRIBLE, 100% clay, but very poor "clay soil". They did fine, or at least reached very old ages without problems.

I would only amend soil for trees if I was very ambitious AND knew that the trees in question really, really needed better soil.

RickCorey said:
Since it is impractical to amend the entire area that the roots will ever need to penetrate, maybe "blend" the amended soil in the planting hole with the surrounding clay. If the transition from good to bad soil is gradual, the roots are more likely to make the transition from pampered soil to clay.

Good advice. And I left out using existing soil. That should be mixed with amendments. Some argue no amendments just local soil, but I disagree. But I also do not like to get in religious like peeing contests about it. If that trips yer trigger - fine,

As I fill a hole I add less amendments as I get further out.

As Rick indicated, don't just dig a hole slightly bigger than the pot and drop the tree in. That might work if you have pristine, perfect, non-claybased soil.

Hi, Pan, and welcome. Where are you getting your dogwood(s) from?

DavidLMO said: ... Some argue no amendments just local soil, but I disagree. But I also do not like to get in religious like peeing contests about it. If that trips yer trigger - fine,

As I fill a hole I add less amendments as I get further out.
...

I used to agree with you - amend, amend, always amend! At least for shrubs and small plants. Then I kept reading and "they" always seemed to say that, if you can't amend your whole yard, don't amend for trees.

But I KNOW that I DON'T know.

I would probably preach The Dogma According to Rick if I had a stronger opinion, but all I'm sure of is that I know how to create a mud wallow, and that clay needs planned drainage channels if you go messing up the grade.

The method you describe is exactly what I would do if I had trees to plant, and time and energy to improve a wide patch of soil. Until you said that you disagree, I was cowed by all the people who say "never amend for trees".

Regardless of amendments or not, if you have significant clay, drainage is the key issue.

When I get more than 3 - 6 " deep anywhere on my property, I hit SOLID clay. Plays hell with bulbs. And anything else - plant, tree or shrub that has issues with wet feet.

Yep, I have the same problem. 20-40' deep clay. I could excavate 10' of it and make a swimming pool. No liner required. That's why I have a raised garden. No other way to get adequate drainage.

Thanks to everyone for y'all's help.

Now, more question, requests for clarification and etc.

Horn toad, I've no trouble with water. We get enough - sometimes, though, we get A LOT all at once which isn't so good (I'm not referring to hurricanes, they give rain absolutely but more banal storms can have more by far. But what's water got to do with anything? Besides pooling in my dug holes to rot away roots?

Dyzzy: The dogwood we lost was in an area whose whole dynamic has changed. It used to be in a partially shaded spot (VERY shady, as a matter of fact). No longer. Besides, I've got 3 Blackthorn Bushes going it that area now. I am willing to jettison eucalyptus. Ginkgoes, however, are far and away my favorite tree. They grow here, though the only one I can specifically recall is at the Old State Capitol grounds (I worked maintenance there in high schhol & some college). The ginkgo there is the largest I have every seen, that that includes photos! It's HUGE! The soil there, while better than mine, in still full of clay. Long story short, is ginkgoes grow here. Luckily, I've a large yard and the potential for smothering my b-fly garden is nill.

David: "Any tree planted in the ground should be protected from blasting summer sun in its first year." Excellent advice. I believe this may have been the culprit behind the death of mant of my trees. I began to suspect this but having it confirmed is GREAT. Your strategies for doing so are good as well. As you might guess, it gets fabulously hot here. I will, but what should I mulch well in Winter? December passes for what you'd likely call Fall here, but back to mulching. Mulching with leaves? Why? I normally use pine bark. I'll be putting a note re cypress mulch at the bottom, for now let's just say I don't use it. Lastly, I don't understand: "...and the top be about 2 feet below grade in your planting hole." What is meant by this? I have NO idea. Also, the size of hole you suggest is beyond my capabilities and for whatever reason day laborers do not have a 'spot' in Baton Rouge where they congregate - so I can't find them to hire. Alternative ideas?

Rick/Corey I've no problem with areas I'd be happy to allow runoff to fill. But how to get the water to cooperate? Install some kind of underground irrigation system? That seems impractical, to say the least.

Here is what I'm going to try. Dig a hole much more deeply than I would for a shrub, then dig - in a 360 degree diameter, around said hole going only about 6" deep and put in regular topsoil for this 'perimeter.' The main hole I will use topsoil, various amendments (compost of all varities) and spoilage (the original soil that came out) mixed with leaves I've collected this Fall - mostly water oak and maple. I may add some proportion of pine bark mulch. The last two components are to give the roots room to spread. I'll then plant the tree about 2" above the level of the ground (that is, the level the tree is in the pot will be 2" higher). Doing this allows the roots that go horizontal to have a much easier time of it. I will plant as many trees as possible in areas that have shade during te hottest part of the day (easy for dogwoods, etc - not so much for ginkgo). For all trees I will rig something to (ty David, great idea) protect them during August and September, and any other super hot days. I'll protect them in this way for their first 3 years. You know how people say of SW heat, "It's a dry heat?' Well, that isn't a cliché. I've been out there and spent some while here Their temperature, while very hot - hotter, by the numbers, than south Louisiana, is FAAAAR less unpleasant than the humid heat here. I don't exaggerate when I say a perfectly in-shape person will begin to sweat within 15 minutes just by walking around down here. It's... enervating. A word invented for our heat. If you're on the levee or even near the river you can count on breezes that are nearly constant. This is why so many runners run along the top of the levee!

The method here described has been gleaned from dozens of websites and forum posts. Wish me luck! If this fails, I may be stuck with some variety of dwarf ginkgo - of which there are many. Anything from bonsai sized to 70' + is the wonderful ginkgo. You see God himself shares my taste for this wonderful tree! It grew when dinosaurs walked the Earth and still exists in a variety of cultivars. God and I share similar tastes, a bragging point if even I heard one! I wonder if He likes strawberry flavored milk, sweet iced tea, mimosas (the drink) and mint juleps? Probably.

GENERAL MESSAGE!!! PLEASE do not buy cypress mulch! Yes, it has qualities that pine mulch doesn't, but if you could see what beautiful cypress swamps or cypress flats look like - and then what they look like after they've been harvested, you would feel exactly as I do. Disgusted. And contempt for those who use it. PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD!

I started this reply, left off for a night, and finished. So the last I read and could respond to was Rick/Corey's. I'll respond to y'all others in a bit. Funeral on the 19th, leaving tomm. a.m. and won't be back until the 21st.

Why a funeral of a cremated loved one so close to Xmas? Because my family is at once very close, so all wanted to be there, and very odd. One cousin is off to Columbia for some charitable work right after Xmas (her sister did a 3 YEAR stint in Outer Mongolia <the part that is it's own country and not ChiComm> - dead serious, not a euphemism for a far off place) and another cousin is off to Munich in early January to give a seminar in her particular specialty of psychology (she's an expert in her niche - I'm dying to tell y'all what - even though it's not too exciting - but then you'd be able to figure out who she is pretty easily - doubt y'all cared, anyway). So it had to be done on the 19th.

But, to quote a great statesman and philosopher - 'I'll be back.' <with a heavy Austrian accent>

Pan

Condolences on the death in your family!

The organic amendments will decompose over time. Under some circumstances, that might cause the root ball and soil surface to subside. I guess if roots fill that zone before the roganics decompose, the roots might fill the empty space left behind.

I think it sounded like you were going to make the transition from "amended hole" to "native soil" at least somewhat gradual. I think that is important.

Even more important is that anything you dig below grade NEEDS a drainage path for water to escape.

Whatever you dig, before you back-fill with amended soil, imagine a 6" water main gushing a Niagara into that hole. Where will the water go? It can't drain DOWN through the clay fast enough to keep your trees alive. And water is stubborn - it WON'T flow uphill. So it will puddle behind any ridge or rise of clay. That's how they make reservoirs. But you want an aerobic root zone, not trapped water turning your amended planting hole into an anaerobic mud wallow.

So there needs to be a trench with a gradual down-slope draining the deepest part of your planting hole DOWN to some lower spot.

>> Rick/Corey I've no problem with areas I'd be happy to allow runoff to fill. But how to get the water to cooperate? Install some kind of underground irrigation system? That seems impractical, to say the least.

The conventional answer 50 years ago was to dig a big, deep ditch and bury some kind of pipe, like un-fired clay "tile" pipe, deeply. Then back-fill the ditch with many cubic yards of drainage gravel.

Now people tend to use perforated corrugated plastic pipe, like 4" or 6" in diameter, in smaller ditches.

That's still crazy-expensive or a huge amount of work.

I just dig a narrow trench and don't even back-fill it. My clay is so hard that the sides have not crumbled in 4 years.

But here's the hard part:

The bed itself must not trap water, so the clay "floor" of the bed needs to be dug and scraped fairly uniformly to slant toward one edge or one corner. That way, water IN the bed will drain away toward that low corner.

Dig and scrape that "floor" of hard clay so that it drains to one spot.

Now visualize a straight line from that lowest corner to the low spot you want to drain TO.

Presumably that line passes through some clay. That's the clay that would have trapped the runoff. That clay needs to be removed so that water, running always DOWNslope, has a path from the bed to the low spot that never requires water to lift itself UP and over any clay.

A slit trench or ditch needs to follow that line. If it's long and/or deep, you might need power tools and/or assistants to help excavate and move the clay somewhere.

Once I get it roughed out, and have dug most of the trench, I like to wait for a heavy rain. Water is easier than a laser level or tight string for finding the high spots and low spots. Once the trench floods behind a high spot, I dig out that high spot and let the water rush down to the next high spot. Also, a little water softens clay so it is easier to dig.

I'm finished when even a heavy rain leaves no deep puddles in the ditch or the bed. Then I COULD install perforated corrugated pipe and drainage gravel ... but now I don't. I just make the ditch as narrow as possible and risk breaking my ankles. If you have clay SOIL instead of clay CLAY, you might need to back-fill with gravel or something to keep the trench from collapsing. One tip: plastic perforated corrugated irrigation pipe is much cheaper and MUCH lighter than an equal volume of 3/4" gravel!

Pan - Does it ever freeze there? If so, add some leaves over the pine bark over winter. Winter is one of the most stressful things for newly planted trees. That and Summer blasting sun.

Pine bark is a great mulch. (I do not use Cypress.)

What you suggested above sounds good.

I am not sure if anyone mentioned above, but you might want to check out your Extension office. They will have lots of brochures and material adequate for YOUR growing area. Most everything there is free. They may also have a Master Gardener group. If so check them out.

I also use the plastic perforated corrugated irrigation pipe and installed some when I planted a Franklin Tree last year as well as a Contorted Filbert in a new bed I made.

Saorry for your loss.

RickCorey said:I used to agree with you - amend, amend, always amend! At least for shrubs and small plants. Then I kept reading and "they" always seemed to say that, if you can't amend your whole yard, don't amend for trees.

Yup.
Was me...
I'd dig up the entire yard, plant a vegetable garden.
Plant the ginko tree(s) in the veggie garden next year.

Seems to me that's the only way you are going to provide decent drainage.

We have to remember that the tree has to send it's roots out of the planting hole... And in clay soil.... Nobody is going to dig a wide enough planting hole.

But maybe if the amendments are tapered off gradually, roots will make the transition from the improved soil to the unimproved clay.

It probably depends on the tree, the clay, the site and the gardener. But I would trust people with "tree experience" more than me.

I no longer give a lot of weight to "Internet consensus" about gardening matters. I think a lot of "Internet experts" are mostly expert at quoting each other in slightly different words, not necessarily thinking about what they're copying.

That and there is just a lot of BS out there.
It MUST be true --- I saw it on the Internet.

The internet and the web are simply amazing venues to get information. But I would certainly agree, @ RickCorey and @DavidLMO. The "news" on the internet has replaced our "evening news" on TV as our go-to source for what's going on.

Yep - and particularly with some of the apps out there, one can get instantaneous info - e.g. Twitter.

Shortly after the WWW was invented, there was an old joke about a wife and husband arguing over something.

Wife: Blah, blah, blah is true
Husband: and you found that out where?
Wife: On the Internet
Husband: Well - how do you know it is true?
Wife: Cause I saw it on the Internet and everything on the Internet is True.
Husband: And who said that?
Wife: It was on the Internet