Ask a Question forum: New Rudbeckia?

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hafcanadian
Jul 9, 2016 10:54 PM CST
Hi-

I've got a black-eyed susan in my yard that's unique, and am trying to find out if it might be a new hybrid. For decades we've had them come up each spring from previous years' seeds, and just let them grow where they sprout, or move them to a more appropriate spot. This one I haven't seen before, nor on your list of Rudbekia's. A good name would be the Octopus or Starfish Rudbekia, huh?

Check out the image(s) I've attached and please advise if it's nothing new.

Thanks
Thumb of 2016-07-10/hafcanadian/19cf74


Thumb of 2016-07-10/hafcanadian/d95eec

central Illinois
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jmorth
Jul 10, 2016 3:05 AM CST
Pretty neat Rudbeckia. I don't think I've seen it on any site's listing.
If you've different Rudbeckia varieties, I'd say you've a nice Rudbeckia self seeded cross. They materialize in many, often bizarre configurations.
Some examples - Thumb of 2016-07-10/jmorth/834338 Thumb of 2016-07-10/jmorth/248db5 Thumb of 2016-07-10/jmorth/0b164f
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Name: Signet
South Western Ontario , Canada (Zone 6a)
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signet
Jul 11, 2016 4:31 PM CST
Hi, looks like your rudbeckia has spontaneously morphed into a new shape. I have not seen one like you have and I visit nurseries all the time . I have some larkspur that has done the same thing . Mostly what grows here is a single purple form but I have some pale pink , pink , deep pink with white stripes and a deep purple double that have developed by spontaneously mutating . I will collect seed this year from these and time will tell if the seeds produce the morphed variety or revert back to the ordinary purple. Love the look of your new form!!!!!!!!!!
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Name: Rj
Just S of the twin cities of M (Zone 4b)
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crawgarden
Jul 11, 2016 5:51 PM CST
Spectacular looking Rudbeckia! Hurray!
Name: Bob
Vernon N.J. (Zone 6a)
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NJBob
Jul 11, 2016 7:50 PM CST
That is one nice looking plant.

hafcanadian
Jul 13, 2016 2:42 PM CST
Here's a few more images of it:

Thumb of 2016-07-13/hafcanadian/15c4eb


Thumb of 2016-07-13/hafcanadian/94ea5a



Thumb of 2016-07-13/hafcanadian/4041f8

Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Jul 13, 2016 3:06 PM CST
It does look special. It looks like a Rudbeckia hirta type? If so how will you propagate it, they tend to be short-lived and it won't come true from seed unless/until you use it to create a line I assume?

hafcanadian
Jul 13, 2016 3:33 PM CST
I have no idea what I'm doing, which is why I came here. I suspect it indeed won't produce seedlings identical to it, and I'd like to know how to purify a line. This year there is only one other one blooming near it, and it is a standard black-eyed type coneflower with normal petals. No doubt that will contaminate pollination of the Lady Lee (my name for the tentacle petaled plant [after my wife] I'd otherwise call "Starfish Coneflower" or "Whirligig Coneflower" or perhaps "Whirligig Susan").

Does it "self-pollinate" within its own flowers, or am I to expect it only to cross only with the regular coneflower nearby? I'm assuming I need to let the seedheads dry, then store until planting in a tray next spring, set those out in the garden, and see if I can get at least two Lady Lee's. Then isolate them somehow from insects, and hand cross-pollinate?

Just guessing the process to get a pure strain, and assuming it would take years as I don't think I can get two generations bloomed out in one season.

Thanks for any advice.
Name: Vicki
North Carolina
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vic
Jul 13, 2016 3:36 PM CST
I hope you figure it out because it sure is beautiful! Thumbs up
Name: Bob
Vernon N.J. (Zone 6a)
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NJBob
Jul 13, 2016 8:16 PM CST
The only sure way to get the same plant is to tissue culture it or clone it .
Name: Elaine
South Sarasota, Florida (Zone 9b)
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dyzzypyxxy
Jul 13, 2016 10:40 PM CST
Seeds you get from it this year will still have the genes of all the others it came from, so you could get any number of different crosses from them. I think what you'd have to do is isolate this plant, (pot it up in the fall and give it winter protection so it won't die) then divide it next spring as soon as you see growth starting.

If you can keep it isolated - somewhere far away from any other Rudbeckias, or in a screened cage where bees can't get through to the plants, then some generations down the road, you will have a pure line of seeds, I think. You may have to hand pollinate the plants, too since the bees can't do the job for you.

This is the reason why new hybrids or strains of new plants are expensive at first - the growers have gone through the exhaustive process of isolating the genetic mutation for long enough that it will come true from seed. Or conversely they are simply propagating it by divisions endlessly, which is once again a very slow, laborious process to get to a point of having enough plants to actually market it.
Elaine

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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Jul 14, 2016 2:29 AM CST
I'm not sure it would be divisible, that type of Rudbeckia is short-lived and doesn't necessarily overwinter, where I am anyway. It's not like 'Goldsturm' which is reliably perennial, it looks more like an 'Indian Summer' type.. I keep the latter going from self sown seedlings. I think you'd have to save seeds, at least as back-up, and keep crossing the seedlings most like it until you get a true breeding line. Or try and sell it to a company that breeds and markets annuals. That's just my thought based on the type it appears to be in the pic.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
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woofie
Jul 14, 2016 5:48 PM CST
I HAVE had Cherry Brandy Rudbeckia survive the winter and bloom the following year here in NE WA, so you might be able to successfully do what Elaine suggested. Mine survived over the winter, in containers, with no particular care, so I'd think a little tender loving attention and they might very well live to bloom again in the Spring.
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