Baja_Costero said:As an alternative to peat for various purposes, coir (coconut fiber) is both better ecologically (it's essentially a waste product from coconut production) and less susceptible to the objectionable water repellent behavior of bone dry peat. ... Coir has a much longer lifespan compared to normal compost and can absorb about 5 times its weight in water, which is a useful thing in our dry climate.

Another alternative to peat or sphagnum is shredded bark, especially conifer bark like pine, fir or balsam.

Bark lasts MUCH longer than peat, and longer than sawdust or wood chips the same size as bark. The suberin in conifer bark preserves it longer than wood. bark also has a little N, unlike sawdust or wood chips, so it causes less or no nitrogen deficit when bark fines are tilled into soil.

Bark fines (shredded down to fibers and powder) hold a lot of water, and don't repel water when dry. They break down after a few years (longer for bark chunks) and add their organic matter to the soil.

Bark shreds and chunks larger than 0.1 inch improve drainage and reduce or eliminate perched water in containers by creating air spaces large enough to drain out freely, so that they fill with air, and become "diffusion highways" to allow air to diffuse into soil (and therefor improve aeration).

ediblelandscapingsc said:in my experience peppers benefit from both calcium and a little bit of sulfur. I always knew they liked calcium but an old farmer once told me to put 6 match heads around each of my pepper plants one year so I did and they grew a lot better that year than in previous years. since then I just used a little sulfur instead of the match heads and they seem love it. ...

Do you use "ag sulfur", like elemental sulfur = "flowers of sulfur" (usually used for acidification) or something like Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate)?

RickCorey said:

Do you use "ag sulfur", like elemental sulfur = "flowers of sulfur" (usually used for acidification) or something like Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate)?

I was wondering that too, since elemental sulfur takes so long to become plant available (although I think quicker in warmer soil), that it likely wouldn't make much sulfur available to an annual crop unless grown in the same place every year rather than the usual rotation.

If a soil test showed both calcium and sulfur were needed but no pH change was wanted then gypsum (calcium sulfate) is another possibility. Not the fastest release either but a bit faster, and kills two birds with one stone.

The perk test is "the" way to test drainage. Realtors use it. The short form is: dig a hole and run a hose into it. If it drains slowly enough that you CAN fill the hole, worry at least a little. If there's still water in the hole a few hours later, worry a lot.

One other way to know that your soil has poor drainage is to watch closely during and after heavy rains or rapid watering.

If water just runs off the surface or makes puddles instead of sinking in, you probably have poor drainage.
If you have any low spots in your yard, do puddles occur there after a heavy rain?

(The slope or grade in your yard affects this test a lot. A dead-flat yard will have no runoff even if it has been paved - the ultimate in poor drainage. A real "low spot" is surrounded by soil higher than it is, and is a very sensitive way to test drainage.)

Push several fingers or your whole hand into a bed. If the soil is too hard to push your hand into, it MIGHT also drain poorly. (Or it might just not have been cultivated recently.) If you can't even push a finger into it, it's too hard, probably full of clay, probably poorly-draining.

(When I say "poorly draining", I mean "too slow". Water won't drain out fast enough or thoroughly enough to let air in to create air diffusion channels and pores. You need air-filled voids to allow oxygen to diffuse into soil to keep roots alive. I've read about people with well-draining or sandy soil, but to me, that's like gardening on Mars. I have no idea what that would be like.)

Try gathering up a handful of soil. If you need a shovel or pick to get a handful of soil loose from the ground, you have heavy clay and probably poor drainage.

Assuming the soil is just slightly moist, squeeze it as if making a small snowball. If it sticks together: it's clay and too-slow-drainage. If it falls totally apart into grains and sifts out between your fingers: it's sand, and too-fast-draining plus not-enough-water-retention.

In-between soil (some sand, some clay, some silt, some organic matter (*) ) has in-between clumping: the fistful-of-dirt should ideally fall apart with very slight encouragement into a few pieces (clods or peds) that could than fall apart further if you poke them gently with a finger.

That "clod structure" is highly prized because it means that tiny grains in the soil are willing to clump together into bigger associations (clods), and those clods may be firm enough to last in the soil for a few years - creating AIR SPACES between the colds. Eventually fine grains or platelets of clay will sift out of the clods and into the air spaces, filling the air spaces and gradually decreasing the aeration over years.

Good point! Which ion do you need more, Ca++ or Mg++? That determines whether to use the immediately-soluble Epsom Salts (MgSO4), or less soluble gypsum (CaSO4).

BTW, you can test for Mg deficiency by foliage-spraying Epsom salts. If it helped, the plants needed either Mg or SO4 or both.

In New England, I always heard that "soil is always acid and always needs more Mg, so add dolomite line instead of plain line". (Dolomite lime is calcium magnesium carbonate and has some Mg: 22% Ca and at least 11% Mg.)

But not all soils need more Mg. Ballpark: sandier soils want 1 Mg per 7 Ca ions. Clay soils want 10:1 Ca:Mg. But dolomite lime is around 2:1 Ca, so it has far too much Mg unless your soil started out very Mg-deficinet.

"They say" that gypsum CAN help soften clay, over several years. Yeah, maybe. I've been trying that for a few years.

My guess is that a big, double-charged ion like Ca++ , with a larger ionic radius than Mg++, forces its way between clay platelets and holds them apart, reducing their stickiness for each other. That's speculation; I can't even confirm that "gypsum softens clay over years".

By the way, Gary, when gardeners say "clay" they almost always mean "clay soil". Pure, 100% clay is like modelling clay: gooey and very sticky and plastic and totally impossible for plants to grow in.

Clay SOIL might have anything from 40% clay to 100% clay. 40% clay might drain enough let you grow some things, with compost added.
- "Sandy Clay Soil",
- "Silty Clay Soil" and
- "Clay Soil".

Then look at the names in the soil triangle for soil that's only 30% clay with varying amounts of sand and silt:
- "Sandy Clay Loam"
- "Silty Clay Loam"
- "Clay Loam"

Clay, clay, clay, clay, clay! Decent soil tends to have LESS THAN 25% CLAY. It doesn't take very much clay to dominate a soil and make it poorly-draining and excessively water-retaining.

Rick, if your soil is sodic then gypsum may help its structure but otherwise not so much.

From Soil Amendments and Practices of Unproven Value:

"Gypsum, which is hydrated calcium sulfate (a low-solubility salt), is effective in treating sodic soils, which are soils high in exchangeable sodium. The sodium between soil particles attracts water, causing the soil to disperse. The dispersed particles seal the soil surface, reducing infiltration. Addition of gypsum replaces the sodium on the exchange sites with calcium, which results in flocculation of the soil particles into soil aggregates. The resultant sodium sulfate can then be leached out of the soil. Although gypsum does improve structure in sodic soils, it will not soften clay nor loosen compacted soil"

http://articles.extension.org/...

Thanks, that seems borne out by sources I can find.

Ca displaces Na, and makes clay particles stick to each other MORE.

That LOOSENS the soil if the clay grains clump together enough and STICK together enough that they act like larger grains, allowing air spaces to exist instead of filling up with (individual, mobile) clay grains.

It's hard for me to remember because it seems paradoxical: making clay MORE sticky makes air pores more stable.

I guess that a double-charged ion can attach to one clay platelet with one charge, and to an adjacent clay platelet with the other charge (or electron orbital). If a few thousand Ca ions do that to two clay plaetlets, now they act like ONE, thicker, platelet.

Right... Just dig a hole and pour water in it and watch it.

Sorry for the late reply everyone, I use a product called "ENCAP Sulfur Plus AST". I don't use pure Epsom Salt on any of my plants but I do like the Epsoma bard organic fertilizers.

Looking it up, the product is made from elemental sulfur, gypsum and polyacrylamide and is for lowering soil pH. Does it actually convert to plant usable sulfur (sulfate) any quicker than the basic ingredients or are you only concerned with lowering the pH? Presumably some sulfate comes from the gypsum but faster than actual gypsum? Edited to add the guaranteed analysis is 11% calcium and 49% sulfur according to the Washington Fertilizer database.

http://agr.wa.gov/pestfert/fer...

Edited to correct typo.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. I am new to gardening so I might be asking simple questions for things that seem obvious to you. So, sorry if this is all too basic. I'm learning.

My soil is pretty much hard clay. You can't just dig your hand into it and have the dirt run through your fingers. You need a shovel and you need to push down hard with your foot. So, maybe this is really bad soil for plants.

But...if I ignore this area, weeds start growing right away. No watering, no fertilizer, no soil amending, no peat moss or gypsum. After a couple of months it will be overgrown with weeds again, just like it was before I cleared it out. And people tell me that weeds are just plants - nothing too special about them - they just happen to be undesirable.

So, can I just plant some of the so-called clay buster plants like prairie blazing star, purple coneflower, black eyed susans, baptisa, etc. and have them grow in the same way that weeds do? The weeds don't really seem to mind the fact that the dirt is clay or whether it's well-drained. Some of these plants are supposed to have huge taproots that go down 10-15 feet which I assume is plenty deep enough for them to thrive in clay conditions, especially for the plants native to where I live, since apparently that's what they were designed to do,

Am I way off track here?

My goals are low maintenance and to establish a habitat that's friendly to local wildlife like bees, butterflies, birds, etc. Seems like if weeds can grow, so can certain desirable plants, right?

You can grow plants in clayey soils, you'll break it up to some extent when you dig the holes for the plants. If you want to improve it somewhat you can add compost or peat moss then it will take longer for it to compact again and give the plants a chance to establish. If you do amend the clay, it's better do the whole planting area and not the individual planting holes. Clay is usually fertile so if you are growing native perennials you probably don't need to fertilize.

Gypsum would not likely do anything for your clay there in Ohio. If your weeds are growing fine then perennial plants adapted to the climate and clayey soils should do OK. You can home test your soil texture to see just how clayey it is by using the method described below:

http://www.finegardening.com/h...

I've been gardening in the same Ohio clay for over 30 years in the same yard. It definitely has it's challenges. If you dig a hole in my lawn, you'll see light tan clay, gooey when wet, like a rock when dry. If you dig in my flower beds, you'll find rich, black soil at least on the top 6 to 12", because I've been amending those areas with compost and other organic matter for over 30 years. The difference is striking.

You have to think of your garden as a work in progress. I think all the suggestions made are good ones, but I would caution you not to expect great results right away. It's a rather slow process.

The best thing you can do, if you're not already, is to start making compost. Treat a different area with it each time you have a finished batch. Mulching with mulched leaves in fall brings lots and lots of worms to fertilize for you. Any organic material (like peat or pine fines) work great but might need to be tilled in to be of much benefit, whereas compost works well as a top dressing.

Another great method, if you're starting a new bed from scratch is lasagna gardening or sheet composting, also known as interbay mulch. Googling any of those terms will give you lots of information.
http://squarepennies.com/2011/...

Karen

Gschnettler said:Thanks for all of the replies so far. I am new to gardening so I might be asking simple questions for things that seem obvious to you. So, sorry if this is all too basic. I'm learning.

Actually, I think that re-examining the basics (gardening fundamentals) is one of THE most fruitful things we can do in a public forum.

- It brings out the different philosophies of experienced gardeners who might otherwise never mention the things that are second nature to them (and mysteries to others).

- We all learn from each other, and answers to general questions might be interesting to more people than answers to specific questions.

- Other beginning gardeners are exposed to both “conventional wisdom” and “other theories”, although this thread has been mostly in agreement so far.

- It brings out both “I do it this way” and also “here are ideas and techniques that are widely applicable”. Not only the original poster, but everyone who reads the thread can pick and choose which ideas to try out and maybe add to their toolkit.

Gschnettler said: ...
My soil is pretty much hard clay. You can't just dig your hand into it and have the dirt run through your fingers. You need a shovel and you need to push down hard with your foot. So, maybe this is really bad soil for plants.

But...if I ignore this area, weeds start growing right away. ...

So, can I just plant some of the so-called clay buster plants ...
Some of these plants are supposed to have huge taproots that go down 10-15 feet ...

My goals are low maintenance and to establish a habitat that's friendly to local wildlife like bees, butterflies, birds, etc. Seems like if weeds can grow, so can certain desirable plants, right?

Well, there are “fussy plants” as well as “weedy plants”, and some plants insist on good drainage for their roots. The weeds that thrive have self-selected themselves. You see dozens of species of weeds that are happy as clams in mud in your clay. But there are hundreds or thousands of weed species that are NOT growing in that clay, because they have fussy feet.

You must have SOME drainage or the only weeds you would see would be bog plants. So maybe you have some slope, and maybe the clay perks a little despite being so heavy. Have you ever dug a test hole to see how deep your clay goes? In some places it extends down to bedrock, and in some places only exists in layers or bands.

>> So, can I just plant some of the so-called clay buster plants ...

That’s a super-good idea. Farmers sometimes use things like “tillage radishes” or Daikon radishes to do exactly that. If you have some variety of weeds and not only those that tolerate root drowning, there are many cover crops that would thrive. Especially if you pick types that tolerate heavy clay. BTW, there are also MIXES of cover crops designed so that some plants grow tall quickly with strong stems and support the others, some fix nitrogen, some send down deep roots and others grow a lot of green top growth very fast (buckwheat).

You COULD instead spend a lot of money, haul in cubic yards of soil amendments, spread and till, haul more things in, spend more money and labor ... or plant cover crops and wait a year or three to get the same results (or better results).

Some of the main virtues of “cover crop” species are “will they grow in heavy clay?” and “do they loosen and aerate the soil deeply with their roots?” and “do they produce lots of OM in their roots and tops, to add to the soil?” and “can they FIX Nitrogen so that they ADD N to the soil's fertility?”

I would suggest combining the goal of “clay buster plants” with the advice “add organic matter”, and perhaps also the goal “attract wildlife”. Pick a cover crop mix that does all three!

You can add OM with mulch, sheet composting, top-dressing with compost, tilling compost or leaves under the soil ... or with “green manure”.

Grow a cover crop, and DON’T strip away the green top growth. Leave it in the field to enrich the soil with OM, or OM and Nitrogen. That’s “green manure”. You can mow it if you want, and use the green tops as mulch, or compost them and add the compost to soil later. Or, if you have access to a plow, plow it under and start a new cover criop right away.

>> My goals are low maintenance and to establish a habitat that's friendly to local wildlife like bees, butterflies, birds, etc.

My first thought was to grow classic cover crops for several years first, THEN start selecting plants for wildlife.

But maybe some people here know some cover crops that are liked by butterflies and bees, or birds, AND good for breaking up clay.

I used to find MANY lists of cover crops online, sorted into categories like
- “clay-tolerant”,
- “breaks up clay”
- “drought-tolerant”,
- “adds lots of OM”,
- “fixes Nitrogen”,
- stops erosion
- suppresses weeds
- attracts beneficial insects
etc.

Now I have to hunt around more for good lists. But my guess is that the clerk at a local co-op store or “feed store” will know what’s best for your area. If they have ten pallets of 50-pound bags of some kind of seed in the warehouse, that’s a good choice for your area! Clover, oats and rye are possibilities, but the specific variety of each one has to be cghosen to be best for your climate and soil.

Here are some things to browse if you want to sound more knowledgeable if you discuss it with a clerk:
http://garden.org/ediblelandsc...
http://www.permaculturenews.or... < - - list of cover crops
http://www.motherearthnews.com...
http://www.gardeningknowhow.co...

I think you have to decide whether you want an annual cover crop that will “go away” in one season if you mow it before it goes to seed, or a perennial cover that will over-winter and just keep driving its roots deeper for years.

It sounds like 2-3 years of some deep-rooted perennial that suppresses weeds would be a less-work way to start. After a few
years of that first cover crop, mow and plow or rototill, then change over to a bee-and-butterfly garden.

Maybe, while waiting for the cover crops and worms to do the hard work for you, also plant a few small raised beds in the middle of the cover crop, to give enough aerated soil to grow whatever wildlife-friendly plants you want on a permanent basis. Get 'em established now so that you can collect seeds or divide them for a few years. When all of the soil is rich, well-drained and welcoming, you will have plenty of stock of your own to plant out.

For local professional advice, it’s hard to beat a local Extension office or Master Gardeners.
Browsing around the Ohio Extension website, I didn’t find a lot of specific advice about clay-busting with cover crops, like specific varieties. Maybe that can only be gotten at the county level with an emailed question.

http://extension.osu.edu/ask-a...

Hamilton County:
Hamilton County Office
5093 Colerain Ave.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45223
PH: 513-946-8989
FAX: 513-772-6126
Visit the Hamilton County Office website: http://hamilton.osu.edu/
Staff Directory


But here’s what I found in their website:

OSU Extension
http://extension.osu.edu/


Hey, exciting! “North American Manure Expo 2016”! I see them saying “Wednesday”, but not WHICH Wednesday.
“His talk, called “Establishing Cover Crops,” is one of four during the expo’s Cover Crops track, which goes from 5 to 7:30 p.m. Wednesday.”

The cover crops they mention are: “annual ryegrass, red clover, buckwheat and many others”

Ohio-related Fact Sheets called “Ohioline”:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/

“Farm” fact sheets:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/topic/...

Cover Crop Fundamentals:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/factsh...

Legumes Non-legumes
Clovers Rye
Hairy Vetch Oats
Field Peas Wheat
Annual Medic Forage Turnips
Alfalfa Oilseed Radish
Soybean Sudangrass
Buckwheat


Three fact sheets tagged “cover crops”:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/tags/c...




http://ohioline.osu.edu/factsh...

For nitrogen: cowpea, crotalaria, winter pea, red and sweet clover, hairy vetch, and soybeans.
For reducing compaction: Brassicas like turnips, oilseed or tillage radish, and annual ryegrass.
...
For organic matter: cereal rye, annual ryegrass, Sorghum Sudan grass, and oats.
...
For weed control and disease suppression: cereal rye, buckwheat, mustard, and oilseed and tillage radish.
... ... ...

Cover crops for organic matter (high C:N): Sorghum Sudan grass, cereal rye, annual ryegrass, triticale, oats, wheat, spelt, and barley.
Cover crops for nitrogen (low C:N): cowpea, winter pea, red clover, sweet clover, hairy vetch, alfalfa, soybeans, and mung beans.
...
Reduce compaction (deep rooted): Sorghum Sudan grass, annual ryegrass-5-6', oilseed or tillage radish-3-30', sweet clover-deep taproot, cereal rye and oats-30".
...
Attract beneficial insects: buckwheat, sweet clover, and red clover.
Tolerate wet soils: sweet clover, red clover, annual ryegrass, cereal rye, wheat, and oats.

Again sorry for the late reply. I'm not exactly sure how quickly it's converted into usable sulfur but I can promise you it's makes a difference in plant vigor and yield. For it to work as well as it does on an annual crop it must be relatively quick. My concern isn't to lower the soil ph but rather to provide the pepper plants with the same benefits they get from the matches. Gypsum may be a good alternative to the lime/sulfur mix but isn't available in my area I can only get fertilizers and a product called clay buster soil conditioner with gypsum added in them. a $5 bag of lime and a $8 bag of sulfur is cheaper than the shipping alone for a bag of gypsum off the net and when you are on a budget like I am you tend to go the cheapest route, plus I use the lime on other plants like my tomatoes and figs and the sulfur on my blueberries and hydrangeas so it all work outs

>> My concern isn't to lower the soil ph but rather to provide the pepper plants with the same benefits they get from the matches.

Ahhhh! You're not adding it for the "elemental Sulfur SLOWLY lowers pH"
and you're not adding it for the "gypsum SLOWLY improves tilth in SODIC clay soils".

You're adding it for the "Gypsum (CaSO4) adds SO4 as fast as it can dissolve (and elemental Sulfur is eventually oxidized into SO4 also, for long-term SO4 addition)".

Then the advertising about "fast-acting" makes sense. I shouldn;t have poked fun at their fancy-shmancy bag and price.

I forget - did you rule out Epsom salts (MgSO4) because you already have enough or more than enough Mg? Epsom salts make a fine foliar spray, but if you don't want Mg, you don't want Epsom salts.

>> Gypsum may be a good alternative to the lime/sulfur mix but isn't available in my area

I understand. I THINK I recall someone adding crumbled drywall / sheetrock to soil in order to add gypsum, but I would lie awake worrying about what ELSE they put into sheet rock, like fire-retardants or who-knows-what. I don't think they worry about making drywall safe to eat.

"Then the advertising about "fast-acting" makes sense. I shouldn;t have poked fun at their fancy-shmancy bag and price."

It depends what causes the benefit, because just lowering the pH makes some nutrients more available if it's a little high for them. I read it as the "fast-acting" referred to the pH lowering. Didn't the old matches have more sulfur than modern safety matches? When I looked up the latter they appeared to be mostly phosphorous and potassium with just a little sulfur.

I would think gypsum would be available at farm supply stores but if Daniel's current product does what he wants without costing more there's no reason to switch unless one wanted maybe to avoid the presumably small amount of polyacrylamide.

The road to heck is paved with rice seedlings?

I've tried various soil amendments over the years to address my clayey soil. Despite adding significant amounts of materials, they degrade over time and I'm back to square one. This year I decided to try rice hulls. Even though California is in the midst of a historic drought, we still grow a lot of rice. A 50 pound bag of rice hulls costs about $10. Pretty reasonable in my view.

It never occurred to me as I was happily amending my soil that there would be an unforeseen consequence. I was impressed with the result of the amended soil. It looked really good. Planted the garden and things were growing great. Then we had an unexpected rainstorm in early May. (In northern California it typically doesn't rain at all from late April until mid November.) About a week after the rain, I started seeing weed sprouts coming up nearly everywhere. I realized that I had rice growing everywhere. Apparently, the rice hulling process leaves a lot of rice seed in the finished product. Easy enough to scuffle hoe the weed seedlings in open areas, but I've had to pull the seedlings from around the plants. An unexpected and unwelcome task.

I still like rice hulls as a soil amendment but I'm going to hot compost them before use next year.