gemini_sage said:Have any of you grown minis from Palatine? Most I see offered locally are little potted own root plants, but Palatine's are budded onto multiflora rootstock. Lyn's photo of Pinstripe got me wondering how large and vigorous those grafted plants might be.

I have grown Roxy and Water Lily from Palatine. Water Lily has grown to waist height and is a very robust and well-branched shrub. Quite lovely in bloom. The Roxy roses are about 18 inches high. They strike me as being more vigorous and more robust than any of the miniatures I've planted on their own roots: Cupcake, Winsome, All Atwitter, and Jeanne Kenneally. Rise 'n' Shine on its own roots is a bigger plant, but I'm having a bit of trouble getting it to bloom; and it's not for lack of sun. I love the shiny wichuriana-style glosshy foliage of Roxy, the shape and watermelon color of the blooms and the generally easy-care quality of the plant. It hangs in there, but I have never been wowed by its fragrance, frequency of bloom, or generosity of bloom. I recently bought some Roxy on their own roots so in a few years' time I'll have a good comparison.

Miniatures really don't need to be grown budded, especially the Ralph Moore miniature roses. The roses he selected for introduction were roses that grew well own root and he introduced over 700 roses to commerce during the years his roses were in commerce. All of the other miniature roses and many of the European miniature roses were based upon his work.

Steve ... as we discussed before, I think your problem with your miniature roses is that they have not been getting sufficient water.

Climate as well as all of the other variables that impact larger roses, do impact miniature roses, but they are tough plants and are survivors.

I haven't uploaded a lot of full plant photos to the NGA. When I have time I will upload more. However, here is a photo of 'Green Ice' that I took before the first flush that I have growing in a container in full, hot sun with reflected heat from a wall behind the plant. It started out as a 4" band.



When miniature roses are sold as "bands" all you are buying is a rooted softwood cutting. If you were to propagate any other plant in your garden yourself as a softwood cutting, once the roots took, you would probably pot it up to grow a larger root mass to where you felt comfortable planting it out in your garden. You probably wouldn't take a small cutting and plant it out right away and expect it to thrive. Of course, that depends on your soil, climate and all of the other variables in your garden.

The nurseries selling bands aren't telling their customers that they are just selling rooted softwood cuttings because people expect to be buying rose plants. In the US, because people were used to buying budded roses, they have an expectation that they will have immediate gratification when they buy roses. That doesn't happen when you buy small cuttings.

The strange part is the average gardener has different expectations when they buy small plants of other perennials. They know they have a young plant and may need to pot it up and grow it on before they plant it out in the garden.

It's OK to buy minis as budded plants, but it's not required because the only thing you are really buying is a more mature plant. The root stock has been growing in the fields for one year and then the budded plant is grown for another season before it is sold.

RoseBlush1 said:

Steve ... as we discussed before, I think your problem with your miniature roses is that they have not been getting sufficient water.

Lynn, Based on my experience this year I am certain that I have not been giving roses adequate water in March and early April.

What I did want to highlight, however, was that most of the minis grown on own roots seemed to be more seriously stunted by my particular cultural practices than those on budded rootstock. It's possible that Jeanne Kenneally and All Atwitter never get more than six inches tall and that Winsome and Cupcake never exceed 12 inches in height and lose half their wood each season regardless of rootstock. Or that Roxy and Water Lily always more vigorously. I write only because there is a very strong correlation between budded rootstock and size among my minis - given my own peculiar cultural practices. And if one is to make a meaningful distinction between rootstocks one observes most closely the conditions under which one behaves differently than the other: i.e. where minis budded onto multiflora rootstock perform better than those grown on their own roots. Possibly budding gives advantages to certain minis exposed to poor cultural practices.

I think it is a reasonable hypothesis - based on my experience - to assert that multiflora roots support minis more satisfactorily in marginal conditions than own roots do in cases where mini cultivars have not been selected for the vigor of their rootstock. I'll know a lot more once my own-root Roxy roses have grown for three years next to my grafted ones. The fact that Ralf Moore preferred to propagate roses with roots vigorous enough to grow good plants without budding is completely consistent with my observations, especially if this same practice was not observed by other breeders in developing the own-root minis above.

I can find no difference whatsoever between Sexy Rexy on its own roots and Sexy Rexy on multiflora rootstock. I have two plants growing four feet away from each other in identical soil and light and they are indistinguishable in every respect after (at least) three years in the ground.

Steve ... I am glad you chose a couple of roses for your examples that I grow.

I volunteered at the nursery that Dee Bennett the breeder of 'Jeanne Kenneally', founded in Chula Vista and have grown many of the roses she bred. I've grown JK both in a large container and in the ground. I kept the container plant at about 3'. My plant in the ground averages about 4'. When I volunteered at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, their plant of JK was around 5'. All of these roses were own root plants.

Like all roses, climate, soil and culture make a difference in how a rose performs.

I also grow 'Cupcake', which was bred by Mark C. Spies and according to the patent is supposed to grow to 12 to 15 inches. My plant stays around 12 inches.

I know that most of the miniature roses bred by US breeders were intended to be grown as own root plants.

You are correct that budding can make a difference when one is gardening in marginal conditions, but that is true of all repeat blooming roses and is not limited to the miniature rose class.

Today is National Cherish an Antique Day:


(Aka 'Glory John', 'Old Glory')
Hybridised by Henri Jacotot in 1850


(Aka 'Van Dael')
Hybridised by Jean Laffay, also in 1850

Lilli that is a beautiful photo of 'Gloire de Dijon'! One that would make me look twice if I saw it in a catalogue.

'Cherish an Antique Day' would apply to our household today as my dear DH is celebrating a big birthday today - my antique whom I love and cherish with all my heart

So my rose of the day is an own rose, bred in 2013 'Deborah x Arthur Bell', which I named after him

Ahhh so sweet Sharlene! I too love and cherish my antique hubby!
And what a gorgeous rose you have created!

My first bloom of one of my favorites, my most photogenic rose, Rose (Rosa 'Helen Hayes') Mine was a gift from Zuzu when we first moved here and I am gaga about it. I think we both are actually based on the amount of photos we've added.

Sharlene, I absolutely LOVE that rose you hybridized! And how sweet that you named it after your hubby!

Late last fall we had U-verse high speed internet installed and when they came out to bury the cable they damaged 'Solero'. I was kicking myself because I'd planned to move it to a more suitable location but just hadn't gotten to it yet. When I saw it damaged I went ahead and dug it and I was unsure if it would survive because the damage was mostly at the bud union. I was relieved to see it growing this spring and yesterday noticed basal growth and at first was excited, then upon closer inspection I noticed the basal growth had matt foliage while the canes are producing glossy leaves. Yep, multiflora suckers! I gently moved soil aside with my fingers and removed the suckers, but I'm afraid this will continue. The good thing is I found roots growing from the canes, so I'm hopeful I can save the rose. It's such a pretty soft yellow, I sure hope I can save it!

Neal!!!

Sue, I can see why 'Helen Hayes' is one of your favourites. The pics in the database are gorgeous!

Speaking of the database, would it be possible to consolidate the text under titles the way they have done is on the iris database? We wouldn't have to scroll down so far to get to the search field.

I think Dave wants to keep them a certain size, the iris one was HUGE, nothing like the rose one. He may eventually rearrange things so the search box is easier to access.

Lovely rose named after your DH, Sharlene!

Sue, Helen Hayes is a beauty!


Yesterday I was busy, so today we have to roses; one for yesterday and one for today:

Yesterday was American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Day (also known as ASPCA Day):

(aka ADharman, Commandant Cousteau, Grand Huit, Grande Classe, Le Grand Huit)

Today is The start of Passover (also known as Pesach):

(aka Meipoten)

Beautiful rose-of-the-day choices!

Last October, we moved our little Zone 9 patio garden west into a ever-so-slighter larger space, 60 miles west, joyously now in Zone 10a and just starting to discover that they no longer live in the low desert!

Stuff got all moved around and now I've got raised beds for flowers and veggies and the pots that got moved but I'm not so sure what's what. Still, it's spring and I've got some happy roses!

Love catching up on what you've all been up to!

Lovely roses! I really like that last one!


Today is National Peach Cobbler Day and why not use a


(aka MORpeaches)

Interesting colour change in this one!

A very striking rose!

So nice to see blooms and buds Julie! Is the stripey one Scentimental? I love it!

Well, my rose with brown spots on the cane answered my question about pruning it back for me- those brown spots are now large brown areas and the canes are getting wrinkly. I'm also seeing a few other roses have similar cane damage, but not as extensively as Beverly. Looks like there is plenty of basal growth though, so I think they'll be fine.

Today is Look up at the Sky Day:

(aka WEKprimsoul)

First bloom on Penelope, a wonderful hybrid musk rose. I have two of them.

Roses newbie question: Do hybrid musk roses retain the special scent of the species Rosa moschata ??

All I know is Penelope has a nice light fragrance.