HamiltonSquare said:I manage a garden all maintained and plants paid for by volunteers in a federal, state, and city historic landmark managed in whole by the parks department. Most visitors have no idea of any of the above. What is very clear is that this is a cemetery. People still take whatever they want right off of a grave. Our parks in California are off limits for "taking" plant or any other material. If it isn't yours the answer seems very clear in all cases. Don't help yourself to what is not yours.

That's incredible. If you're found stealing from a grave, there should be pretty severe penalties for that in my opinion. But what do you think of the topic of the thread?

1. I agree with most that this would be wrong in basically any given situation.

2. A lot of businesses take great pride in and spend a lot of money to keep their plants beautiful and inviting. I would say that at a lot of businesses, you would probably get a "I don't care" or "I don't know" answer. The best way to go about this (if you're looking for permission) would be to wait for or ask for their landscaping schedule. I have asked for cuttings from shrubs that have been trimmed during weekly/monthly maintenance and most often, they will just hand it to you. The business will not care, because they have already paid someone to cut it and it is destined for the trash anyway. As far as sneaking in and doing it yourself without asking, I do not think that it would be okay in most situations. As mentioned, some businesses take great pride in their landscaping and you would be diminishing this. At the bank that I worked at years ago, we quite frequently had people coming up and collecting leaves, taking cuttings, etc., and it was multiple people. It got to the point that the company had to have workers watch the grounds to "shoo" away people, as the plants around the building were starting to look pathetic.

3. From a public park, I would feel guilty about taking cuttings, if only for the fact that these places are for everyone to enjoy. The plants (in my opinion) are there to attract wildlife and to be enjoyed via your eyes. With that being said, I have taken cuttings and seeds from "waste properties"--areas that are owned by someone or some company, but are not maintained, kept, or looked after. For instance, in the middle of the woods, on some random mountainside (not park land), if I see some seeds or a sapling that I wanted, I would most likely take it. In another scenario, being from Corpus Christi (padre island), there are many places and many properties that have plumeria growing in them. These are not peoples kept yards or on a nature preserve, but in random fields that are not yet developed, or behind a dune, off of the beach. In that type of setting, I do not believe that it would harm the plant or anyone else if you wanted to take a small cutting. Do you know who it belongs to? No. Is there even a way to ask? No. In that type of situation, I would just hope that people would utilize common sense and not take a cutting from a plant if they thought that it would harm the plant in any way.

As for the nursery/arboretum seed and/or cutting discussion, I would not think that it would be okay. For nurseries, they may have wanted those seeds to further their business, whether you found it on the ground or not. It is not your right to pick it up. In arboretums, most are privately owned or state owned and are driven by public funds and donations. Most of these places barely have enough funding as it is, and they are to be enjoyed by all. If people strolled through taking cuttings of plants throughout, then the site would lose it's beauty and purpose. A lot of these places have natural areas that are left to be "native" in their own right. By harvesting that seed pod, or by picking a sapling, you are stealing from that habitat they have purposely let seed itself.

Taking cuttings from public spaces, or from businesses, or individuals,---- without asking first is NOT ethical.
The same goes for seeds.

I like Bonehead's idea about a "Cutting Tour" and will suggest this as a revenue-generator next time I go to the Arboretum. For me, one of the highlights of going there is poking around in the greenhouses to see what they have for sale.
Here is a Fuchsia procumbens producing berries in my yard, which I purchased at the Arboretum (purple flower is something else). It is one of my favorite plants, and I had no idea it would be hardy here until I saw it growing there:

@vurbil ...

You missed the point of my example .. no, I am not pointing a finger directly at you ... other than I want to clarify my point.

The roses we had to move were not damaged by ONE person. It was many people taking cuttings from the same plant. Each probably took a small amount of material. None of the roses in that garden were patented, nor were they readily available except through our sales to the public to raise funds to maintain the roses.

You also missed HamiltonSquare's point. He volunteers at the Sacramento Historic City Cemetery, which is a public park.

http://oldcitycemetery.com/ham...

Leslie told you what he thinks of the topic of the thread.

You also asked me

If there were an apple tree in a public park, would you consider it theft for a member of the community to pick the apple and eat it? Who does the apple tree belong to? Should the caretaker and other volunteers get to eat all the apples? Does the apple tree belong to them? What should become of the apples?

Unless you ask, you will not know if you are stealing. I live in an old gold mining town up in the mountains. We have a public park in the middle of town that was once part of an orchard planted by one of the first homesteaders up here to provide fruit for the gold miners. A group of volunteers worked hard to bring those ancient apple trees back to productivity because the goal was to provide fruit for the soup kitchens for the poor up here. We lose a LOT of our harvest because people think it's OK to just pick the apples because the trees are growing in a public park. We even have signs up. HA !

I think my issue with your friendly conversation is more about how you have phrased the discussion. "We the public own the parks, so we can take what we find in them." Have I said that right ? If we the public are the owners, why aren't more members of the public stepping up to help maintain the parks, the help propagate the plants and to help keep the parks beautiful ?

I know in the rose gardens, we had deadheading parties, pruning parties, weeding parties and needed volunteers to tend cuttings and plant the new roses propagated from those cuttings ... all of which were published as announcements in newspapers and on Facebook.

We never had enough volunteers to help maintain the public parks.

If you offer your time, your labor or your skills, the volunteers already working in the parks would probably feel more generous about offering propagation material because you are giving back and not just taking.

I have worked in a public garden and can say it is heartbreaking to spend time and labor on a project and see the plants stolen or constantly cut on. I had plants stolen that I grew or volunteers grew from seed. Our budget was always smaller than the expectations of joint organizations and the public. We all went above and beyond to do the best we could with such little resources. The rose garden was generally hit the worst for cuttings. Over the years it does take a toll with every person who thinks they are the only one taking some. I spent three years working on a maple tree shaping it. One day after years of careful pruning to get the desired weeping shape I walked past it and nearly cried. Someone had cut off a leading branch that I had worked so long to create. It completely ruined the whole look. We caught one guy loading his truck with some plants and he response was to say that it was a public garden therefore it was his right to take what he pleased as a tax payer. I threw a penny at the "tax payer" and told him to keep the change. Taxpayer Puleeeze!!!!

We had one volunteer that came in weekly to help. One of the projects she helped with got hit by people taking what they wanted. The volunteer spent her time there honoring a lost family member that when alive spent lots of time in the park. Sometimes seemingly innocent actions send ripple effects to many affected people.

vurbil said:I didn't ask who you would ask permission because I'm unaware of the caretaker's phone number lol. I asked it as a hypothetical question to make the point that the caretaker doesn't own the park. The community owns the park. The caretaker is just someone we hired to maintain it.

The park is ours to enjoy, but we can only enjoy it in a responsible way that respects the fact that we own it jointly with our neighbors. For example, no one would argue that I can't walk next to and observe a plant. But if I were to walk ON the plant and damage it, I would be acting irresponsibly. Likewise, if I were to cut an entire plant to the ground to make cuttings out of it, I would be acting irresponsibly. But if I took a cutting in such a way that preserved the health and appearance of the plant, I would be acting entirely responsibly. In fact, proper pruning of plants is beneficial and recommended for just about every plant species. It's virtually a requirement for some.

So you are correct that if someone were to cause "visible harm" to a plant, they would be acting irresponsibly. But you can certainly take a cutting without causing harm, visible or otherwise. That has been proven over millennia of gardening.

On your second point that you would be taking something that doesn't belong you, I'm afraid you're just incorrect. You're not taking the plant. The plant remains and is in good health. You've subtracted nothing from the community's park. If your logic held up, you'd be committing a sin against the community every time you pruned a bush.

What a bunch of BS.
1. "The caretaker" of a public park is more than just someone who "maintains" it. By definition; a person who is in charge of the maintenance of a building, estate, etc.; superintendent. They are the designated representative who is "in charge". If your hypothetical had stated "a caretaker" perhaps your point would have some validity as it could refer to someone who merely is involved in the day to day upkeep.
2. A singular person has no "ownership" of any public land. That idea is absurd. The land is set aside for public use and enjoyment but ownership is retained by the local or state municipality. By your logic if every taxpayer were an owner then who decides what part is owned by each and every taxpayer. "But if I took a cutting in such a way that preserved the health and appearance of the plant, I would be acting entirely responsibly." Where is your Deed of ownership for that cutting you decide to take? Preserving the health and appearance of the plant is not YOUR decision to make, that is the responsibility of "the caretaker".
It is my opinion that taking a cutting without proper authorization is completely irresponsible. Just my thoughts on the matter.

What an intriguing conversation. I believe this is all hypothetical, if I read the original post correctly. We have the black-and-white do not steal folks who come across at times a bit judgmental. Another faction appears to follow the hippocratic 'do no harm' notion, which has been countered by folks involved in actual caretaking of public areas. A few have apparently left in anger - jab and run style. All quite interesting, to me.

Someone made a plea about thinking things through. Yes please.

Here are some quandaries to think about…..

1 - As was said earlier in this discussion (but I think lost in in people's tendency to "speed read"),
converting public property into private property [by taking seed or cutting from public property and thereby making it yours], it's a slippery slope.

2 - Does your judgement overrule the rights of others?

3 - Are your justifications relevant? For instance, if your justification is that the plant will grow back, then it must also be OK to take garden tomatoes. They grow back, too.
And.... is this "for instance" a valid analogy? Why or why not...

4 - If you claim that a public park is by definition yours to do with what you want "within reason", then you must also agree that there are public areas of which you are not part of that public, and have no claim. These would include city parks in cities that you do not live in and do not pay that city's taxes, or county parks in counties other than your own, etc. Such a rational is also applicable to public arboretums, public and private wild lands, etc.

Now, if you have just taken a couple minutes to read what I just wrote, then I have failed. My intent was a contemplation of more than my mere words.

and to what end?

Baja_Costero said:There is an important aspect of bot gardens related to public education and public access to plants. And ideally they would have a young version of everything in the garden available for purchase in their greenhouse, more for this purpose (related to their mission) than the earning of cash (related to their survival). But there is never enough space or expertise or volunteer hours to make that happen, so it's inevitably a patchwork affair.

A very dedicated and supportive Growing Friends (of the Botanical Gardens), do exactly this here: It's a fabulous opportunity to pick up healthy tube-stock. https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/...

Baja_Costero said:There is an important aspect of bot gardens related to public education and public access to plants. And ideally they would have a young version of everything in the garden available for purchase in their greenhouse, more for this purpose (related to their mission) than the earning of cash (related to their survival). But there is never enough space or expertise or volunteer hours to make that happen, so it's inevitably a patchwork affair.

A very dedicated and supportive Growing Friends (of the Botanical Gardens), do exactly this here: It's a fabulous opportunity to pick up healthy tube-stock. https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/...

https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/...

Wow that is even more organized than the one in Seattle. Here we can go wander around in the greenhouse area, most things have a price on them, you can take them over to the gift shop and pay. I never see anyone working there, it's usually empty. It's all on the honor system.They occasionally offer classes on propagation, I have assumed that is how the plants get made. Oh I would love to see the Botanical Garden in Sydney. I sure would not be able to buy anything though, as I could not bring plants through Customs.

I said: ..... My intent was a contemplation of more than my mere words.

lauriebasler said:and to what end?

To come to a fully reasoned decision. To feel good about your decision, rather than continually second guessing about it in the back of your mind. To have clear focus. To realize (not just pay lip-synch to) an open mind.

If by "to what end?" you want me to impart my view on the subject, then sorry. Unless people have open minds, no fact, no story, no action and no experience can change their beliefs.

Pistil said:Oh I would love to see the Botanical Garden in Sydney. I sure would not be able to buy anything though, as I could not bring plants through Customs.

that's true. Even for me I have to travel almost two hours each way by train and then a lot of leg-work to enjoy a few hours at the Botanical Gardens/Sydney. It is a super place to visit. Then I can't carry numerous tube-stocks back with me either. I've bought one; it was a Salvia, Azurea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

The Sydney botanical gardens are awesome!

This statement is not intended for any 1 person but is just my prospective.
If anyone needs plant material just ask, many times homeowners and restaurants will not mind. If the homeowner is a gardener he/she may enjoy talking about the plant and give you more things that what you asked for just because you enjoy gardening and talked to them. Parks on the other hand were built for people to enjoy and not as a repository for plant material. Everyone thinks 1 cutting won't hurt but as others stated previously what if everyone had that mentality? In South Carolina we respect others property lines and personal belongings. If I catch someone snooping around my gardens or property regardless of the reason they will get confronted and depending on what they are up to things could get ugly real quick. Good ol' boys are only good until that line gets crossed. That said I've had many people stop while I'm outside and ask questions and I've given many plants, seeds, and cuttings away. In general gardeners are a friendly bunch who love talking and sharing plants so it never hurts to ask.

I don;t think it's right to take cuttings without permission. Have I done it? I'll never admit it. Sometimes if you catch the landscape maintenance people working on the grounds, you can ask them for their cuttings. They are pretty generous like, when taking out annuals and replacing them with something else. A lot of those "spent" plants get thrown away. Catch them a Lowe's too. They have to inventory what they throw away but they are free for the revival attempts if you ask.

"They never have cuttings of ___ for sale." Hmm...

If gardens, parks, arboretums do sell cuttings periodically, the piece that "didn't affect the appearance" was likely intended to be a cutting for sale would have been harvested to do so if it had not been taken. If the people administrating and cultivating for these entities are utilizing propagation, they will never get a chance to increase the plant if too many with the "didn't affect appearance" mindset come by and take their cuttings or seeds.

I have decided I agree with the concept of the Park being for all of us, but not actually my property. So I will treat the Park the same as I treat the trail in the National Park "Take only pictures, leave only footprints". But we have to be careful not to get too sticky about all this. I hear that children are now sometimes not allowed to run and play in a park, "because they will destroy the grass" or will "make trails in the woods". I want the children to feel comfortable in nature, and this does mean they may pick a flower, pick up a stick, place stepping stones in a stream, or, god forbid, make a fort. I am totally cool with that.