My brother lives in a development with a green belt that he butts up to. Per the rules, he is supposed to not step foot in that green belt. That seems just silly to me. He and his young children should feel free to roam the woods, establish paths, and clear the invasive blackberries. Which they do. Go bro.

"Go bro" is right, Deb. I can't imagine having a greenbelt that people are not allowed to walk on. Guess it's there just to be pretty. Strange.

I was especially impressed by the lack of blackberries, and asked bro if there was a crew that took care of that, and he simply pointed to himself. His greenbelt is a lovely mix of native firs, cedars, vine maples, and sword ferns.

What a wonderful debate and discussion.

First, I will fess up. I have taken plant material without permission. But, I do follow certain rules.

If it's a public park, I don't take anything. Same for any forest lands - without permission. I actually wanted to do an experiment on blueberries in WA state (called huckleberries up there), and I asked the forest service station folk for permission to remove plants. It took quite a while for them to find me the proper person to give me permission. Turned out, he was really into huckleberry research, but didn't have funds or time. So, we worked together, and I got permission more than once, to actually go into the Gifford Pinchot National Forest to remove plants. And trust me, I carried that written permission with me, because it's a federal offense. It was a really fun project, and I (then a master gardener) was invited to speak at a forest service symposium on huckelberry research. Part of the reason it's important, is because of old treaties with local tribes on allowing them access to berries - and without allowing them to set fire to the forest anymore, the huckleberry fields are diminishing like mad.

So, I really respect leaving public lands alone.

I do, however, completely understand the argument that our public lands belong to the people. I think, though, that we need to remember, that our tax dollars also pay for the mucky mucks to monitor and create regulations that are needed, and to enforce them - in order to protect "our" lands. So, it's more complex than just the fact that we own them. We have also "hired" managers to determine any necessary security measures to protect our "investments." And we have to trust them. We have basically hired managers and lawyers and we need to let them do their jobs, and to respect their decisions. Or, hire new ones. But, in the meantime, we need to adhere to the regulations and security measures put in place by the people we hired to protect our land.

As far as swiping stuff from a Home Depot type of business - the problem here, is that you can be arrested and sued for swiping plant matter from a private business or individual - IF - (at least in CA) - they can show damages. Or, in layman's terms, some kind of actual out-of-pocket loss, such as profits. Here, if you take for free something that Home Depot intends to make a profit on - you can be sued. And it's a crime of theft, because you had the intent to deprive them of something that has value to them. So, I don't do this, because I don't want to be arrested and/or sued LOL.

As far as swiping stuff from private property. Yes, I do this. Because I know I can get away with the above. For instance, they would have to show some kind of actual damages from my swiping of a cutting or some seeds. How would they do that?

Well, they could do it if they could prove they intended to sell all of their seeds and cuttings from their plants. That would be hard to do, unless that was their business. Now, if they were to suffer a loss of value to their property by my swiping of cuttings, that's a different story. Me taking a 5 inch cutting wouldn't meet the test. But, if someone was to swipe an entire palm tree that would otherwise make their property worth more money if it was still there - then they'd have a good case.

I admit that sometimes I don't ask for permission, because it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. And I also gauge the situation. For instance, I took a bunch of lavender seed heads just last week from a property on my block. That lavender has taken over their driveway and needs to be dead-headed desperately, and the property is generally a mess as far as gardening maintenance. So, I figured swiping some seeds was safe.

I also swipe seeds and cuttings from local commercial properties. I have only swiped a few little cuttings of aptenia so far from a commercial property that uses it as a ground cover over a huge area. Nobody would ever notice I took them. But, these are also either overgrown properties or it's obvious the landscape is not there to provide cuttings or seeds for sale, and because of the kind of people that walk by or work there or are customers there, and the lack of pedestrian traffic, the odds of a ton of people swiping cuttings to the point of doing any damage is pretty much nil.

So, there you have it. I admit that I do not follow the idea that if I don't own it, I can't take it. I do not take from public properties where doing so could cause harm or would definitely be illegal, with no arguments regarding damages - because there are specific laws regarding protecting public lands. But, I will take a chance on private properties, because I know they have to prove damages, and I feel confident that I have not caused any.

So, what does that make me? A person who is a calculated thief, I guess LOL. And I honestly have no shame about it. I guess, I do basically follow the "do no harm" idea. And further, "do no harm that break laws regarding public lands, or where someone can prove actual damages." But, I also make sure nobody could ever tell I was there. So, I not only do no harm, but I also do no visual harm.

That all said, there is a gorgeous red bougainvillea I really want a cutting from on one of my neighbor's properties, but I'd have to walk up to her porch to get one. I do also have a rule that I have to be able to reach the cutting or seeds from the sidewalk. I've seen her outside working in her garden, and I feel sure she will let me take some cuttings when I ask her. I need to get some more pots and soil before I ask her, though, because I want to be ready to plant them when she says yes.

Zuni said:What a wonderful debate and discussion.

First, I will fess up. I have taken plant material without permission. But, I do follow certain rules.

If it's a public park, I don't take anything. Same for any forest lands - without permission. I actually wanted to do an experiment on blueberries in WA state (called huckleberries up there), and I asked the forest service station folk for permission to remove plants. It took quite a while for them to find me the proper person to give me permission. Turned out, he was really into huckleberry research, but didn't have funds or time. So, we worked together, and I got permission more than once, to actually go into the Gifford Pinchot National Forest to remove plants. And trust me, I carried that written permission with me, because it's a federal offense. It was a really fun project, and I (then a master gardener) was invited to speak at a forest service symposium on huckelberry research. Part of the reason it's important, is because of old treaties with local tribes on allowing them access to berries - and without allowing them to set fire to the forest anymore, the huckleberry fields are diminishing like mad.

So, I really respect leaving public lands alone.

I do, however, completely understand the argument that our public lands belong to the people. I think, though, that we need to remember, that our tax dollars also pay for the mucky mucks to monitor and create regulations that are needed, and to enforce them - in order to protect "our" lands. So, it's more complex than just the fact that we own them. We have also "hired" managers to determine any necessary security measures to protect our "investments." And we have to trust them. We have basically hired managers and lawyers and we need to let them do their jobs, and to respect their decisions. Or, hire new ones. But, in the meantime, we need to adhere to the regulations and security measures put in place by the people we hired to protect our land.

As far as swiping stuff from a Home Depot type of business - the problem here, is that you can be arrested and sued for swiping plant matter from a private business or individual - IF - (at least in CA) - they can show damages. Or, in layman's terms, some kind of actual out-of-pocket loss, such as profits. Here, if you take for free something that Home Depot intends to make a profit on - you can be sued. And it's a crime of theft, because you had the intent to deprive them of something that has value to them. So, I don't do this, because I don't want to be arrested and/or sued LOL.

As far as swiping stuff from private property. Yes, I do this. Because I know I can get away with the above. For instance, they would have to show some kind of actual damages from my swiping of a cutting or some seeds. How would they do that?

Well, they could do it if they could prove they intended to sell all of their seeds and cuttings from their plants. That would be hard to do, unless that was their business. Now, if they were to suffer a loss of value to their property by my swiping of cuttings, that's a different story. Me taking a 5 inch cutting wouldn't meet the test. But, if someone was to swipe an entire palm tree that would otherwise make their property worth more money if it was still there - then they'd have a good case.

I admit that sometimes I don't ask for permission, because it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. And I also gauge the situation. For instance, I took a bunch of lavender seed heads just last week from a property on my block. That lavender has taken over their driveway and needs to be dead-headed desperately, and the property is generally a mess as far as gardening maintenance. So, I figured swiping some seeds was safe.

I also swipe seeds and cuttings from local commercial properties. I have only swiped a few little cuttings of aptenia so far from a commercial property that uses it as a ground cover over a huge area. Nobody would ever notice I took them. But, these are also either overgrown properties or it's obvious the landscape is not there to provide cuttings or seeds for sale, and because of the kind of people that walk by or work there or are customers there, and the lack of pedestrian traffic, the odds of a ton of people swiping cuttings to the point of doing any damage is pretty much nil.

So, there you have it. I admit that I do not follow the idea that if I don't own it, I can't take it. I do not take from public properties where doing so could cause harm or would definitely be illegal, with no arguments regarding damages - because there are specific laws regarding protecting public lands. But, I will take a chance on private properties, because I know they have to prove damages, and I feel confident that I have not caused any.

So, what does that make me? A person who is a calculated thief, I guess LOL. And I honestly have no shame about it. I guess, I do basically follow the "do no harm" idea. And further, "do no harm that break laws regarding public lands, or where someone can prove actual damages." But, I also make sure nobody could ever tell I was there. So, I not only do no harm, but I also do no visual harm.

That all said, there is a gorgeous red bougainvillea I really want a cutting from on one of my neighbor's properties, but I'd have to walk up to her porch to get one. I do also have a rule that I have to be able to reach the cutting or seeds from the sidewalk. I've seen her outside working in her garden, and I feel sure she will let me take some cuttings when I ask her. I need to get some more pots and soil before I ask her, though, because I want to be ready to plant them when she says yes.

Sounds to me that you must be a lawyer.

GardenerBob said:

Sounds to me that you must be a lawyer.

I did study law, but did not become a lawyer. I realized I liked researching and learning the law better than I'd like dealing with clients LOL.

Zuni said:What a wonderful debate and discussion.

First, I will fess up. I have taken plant material without permission. But, I do follow certain rules.

If it's a public park, I don't take anything. Same for any forest lands - without permission. I actually wanted to do an experiment on blueberries in WA state (called huckleberries up there), and I asked the forest service station folk for permission to remove plants. It took quite a while for them to find me the proper person to give me permission. Turned out, he was really into huckleberry research, but didn't have funds or time. So, we worked together, and I got permission more than once, to actually go into the Gifford Pinchot National Forest to remove plants. And trust me, I carried that written permission with me, because it's a federal offense. It was a really fun project, and I (then a master gardener) was invited to speak at a forest service symposium on huckelberry research. Part of the reason it's important, is because of old treaties with local tribes on allowing them access to berries - and without allowing them to set fire to the forest anymore, the huckleberry fields are diminishing like mad.

So, I really respect leaving public lands alone.

I do, however, completely understand the argument that our public lands belong to the people. I think, though, that we need to remember, that our tax dollars also pay for the mucky mucks to monitor and create regulations that are needed, and to enforce them - in order to protect "our" lands. So, it's more complex than just the fact that we own them. We have also "hired" managers to determine any necessary security measures to protect our "investments." And we have to trust them. We have basically hired managers and lawyers and we need to let them do their jobs, and to respect their decisions. Or, hire new ones. But, in the meantime, we need to adhere to the regulations and security measures put in place by the people we hired to protect our land.

As far as swiping stuff from a Home Depot type of business - the problem here, is that you can be arrested and sued for swiping plant matter from a private business or individual - IF - (at least in CA) - they can show damages. Or, in layman's terms, some kind of actual out-of-pocket loss, such as profits. Here, if you take for free something that Home Depot intends to make a profit on - you can be sued. And it's a crime of theft, because you had the intent to deprive them of something that has value to them. So, I don't do this, because I don't want to be arrested and/or sued LOL.

As far as swiping stuff from private property. Yes, I do this. Because I know I can get away with the above. For instance, they would have to show some kind of actual damages from my swiping of a cutting or some seeds. How would they do that?

Well, they could do it if they could prove they intended to sell all of their seeds and cuttings from their plants. That would be hard to do, unless that was their business. Now, if they were to suffer a loss of value to their property by my swiping of cuttings, that's a different story. Me taking a 5 inch cutting wouldn't meet the test. But, if someone was to swipe an entire palm tree that would otherwise make their property worth more money if it was still there - then they'd have a good case.

I admit that sometimes I don't ask for permission, because it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. And I also gauge the situation. For instance, I took a bunch of lavender seed heads just last week from a property on my block. That lavender has taken over their driveway and needs to be dead-headed desperately, and the property is generally a mess as far as gardening maintenance. So, I figured swiping some seeds was safe.

I also swipe seeds and cuttings from local commercial properties. I have only swiped a few little cuttings of aptenia so far from a commercial property that uses it as a ground cover over a huge area. Nobody would ever notice I took them. But, these are also either overgrown properties or it's obvious the landscape is not there to provide cuttings or seeds for sale, and because of the kind of people that walk by or work there or are customers there, and the lack of pedestrian traffic, the odds of a ton of people swiping cuttings to the point of doing any damage is pretty much nil.

So, there you have it. I admit that I do not follow the idea that if I don't own it, I can't take it. I do not take from public properties where doing so could cause harm or would definitely be illegal, with no arguments regarding damages - because there are specific laws regarding protecting public lands. But, I will take a chance on private properties, because I know they have to prove damages, and I feel confident that I have not caused any.

So, what does that make me? A person who is a calculated thief, I guess LOL. And I honestly have no shame about it. I guess, I do basically follow the "do no harm" idea. And further, "do no harm that break laws regarding public lands, or where someone can prove actual damages." But, I also make sure nobody could ever tell I was there. So, I not only do no harm, but I also do no visual harm.

That all said, there is a gorgeous red bougainvillea I really want a cutting from on one of my neighbor's properties, but I'd have to walk up to her porch to get one. I do also have a rule that I have to be able to reach the cutting or seeds from the sidewalk. I've seen her outside working in her garden, and I feel sure she will let me take some cuttings when I ask her. I need to get some more pots and soil before I ask her, though, because I want to be ready to plant them when she says yes.

I've thought about whether or not to respond to this post for a couple of days. I am not the plant police, so that is not my issue.

I think your justification of situational integrity and conclusion that you do no harm is totally bogus.

In terms of plant material stolen, you may do no harm. However, every time you take anything from someone's private property you are invading their space and showing a major lack of respect for others who share the earth with you. Beyond that, I think you are showing a major lack of respect for yourself.

You can justify it any way you want, but it comes down to, "If I don't get caught, or there are not significant consequences, I'll just take what I want."

I find that less than admirable.

I agree completely with Lyn. I find some of the posts in this thread frankly appalling. "Public" parks and gardens belong to the entire public, not each individual member of the public. You personally aren't entitled to anything in a public park or garden. There's also such a thing as "public" transport. Does that mean you can take a bus home with you?

As for taking cuttings, seeds, or whole plants from private owners, who made these owners the "designated buyers" of plants for other people? Buy your own plants!

Zuni said:

I did study law, but did not become a lawyer. I realized I liked researching and learning the law better than I'd like dealing with clients LOL.

You should of taken some ethics classes

I love Human Nature!
We are the most fascinating things on this Blue Marble.
No wonder we`re in trouble.

Tisha

I've also thought about responding to this thread. I think everyone has covered their own points of view. My point is not about plants, but your own personal ethics in general. When you are at work, do you take extra long breaks? Do you use your employers phone for personal calls and not make that time up? Do you come in late to work and leave on time? Do you use your employers Xerox for personal use without replacing paper that you used? Are there items in your home that your employer bought? I've probably gone a little overboard making my point but these are all things to think about. Nobody is perfect, but theft is theft no matter what is being taken.
Edit removed a word.