Hi All
Thanks for your suggestions, and sorry for the delay in replying - I've been out of action due to an illness. Jeanie, you triggered a memory for me ... the first one could be a pyrethrum, I think I sowed some of those around the same time.
I wonder if the second one might be ox-eye daisy? I already have some in my garden, maybe these are self seeding interlopers! They look quite like what has grown back in that area after I cut them back after flowering ...
