JungleShadows said:Got another `1500 seedlings rowed out late yesterday to take advantage of the rain. There is a huge group (~350) from Lion King X my favorite cantabricum selection that I'm looking forward to seeing. The sib to Borscht X Patent Leather Shoes should be good too!
Jo Ann, I plan my crosses in the winter and then sort of refine the list when I see what is going to bloom. Still some of my best crosses are more ones of the moment. I had bagged Jungle Shadows and Lilac Time to use in crosses but not with each other. However, I saw in my mind that combining the best qualities of those two could be really good. The second generation from this cross is some of my most exciting, beautiful shapes and unusual colors. There should be several that hit the market from this group.
One thing Polly had me do was grow open pollinated seedlings from cultivars to see what sort of seedlings would appear. If the bee pollinated seed gives good seedlings then that plant is probably a really good parent and should be used in real crosses. I don't do that much any more as I have a cross in mind although I'll sometimes plant open pollinated seed from cultivars that I'm about to lose due to bloom out so that I don't lose the genes. I also plant open pollinated seed from plants that are impossible parents, like Aymon Correvon. All the rest are hand pollinated.
Kevin
JungleShadows said:Jo Ann,
I'm betting the seedlings from Lion King X the cantabricums might be the football-sized greens, although maybe not chartreuse. I love the calcareum from Ceuse that is such a lovely shade of chartreuse but calcareums are diploids and, when you outross them, most of the seedlings are sterile. I don't like dead ends! Chris said that his Gold Nugget has not bloomed yet either and I'm hopeful it will pass its color onto the progeny.
If Gold Nugget is like the gold hosta, it could give gold seedlings even in outcrosses.
Kevin
ediblelandscapingsc said:Are there any named tetraploids? I can't find anything on the net except species and most of those are all over the place with different info. I wish our database included ploidy.
JungleShadows said:Daniel,
More than half of the species are tetraploids or have tetraploid clones. In the named varieties almost all of them are tets or triploids as almost all have some tectorum blood.
All of the ones in Jovibarba section are diploids so their genetics is more simple.
Kevin
ediblelandscapingsc said:Thanks for explaining Kevin. So just to be clear heuffelii and Rollers can cross but not a heuffelii and Lion King for example?
JungleShadows said:Actually that's two sets of differences. Within the Jovibarba subsection any of the rollers can be crossed to the heuffs. Both of these species are diploids and the hybrids between them are sterile or nearly so.
The species in the Jovibarba section can be crossed with the other semps, but with great difficulty. The hybrids produced are abnormal and sterile.
Among the Sempervivum section, diploids crossed with other diploids give close to sterile hybrids. My Greenwich Time is an example, a montanum X calcareum cross.
The tufted group are crosses of cobwebs with other non-cobwebbed semps. They can be of three different ploidies. Diploid if both parents are diploid (and sterile), triploids if one parent is diploid and the other tetraploid (these show surprising fertility), and tetraploid (if the tetraploid cobwebs are crossed to tetraploid species and cultivars). The last group is almost fully fertile.
There will be a full discussion of this in my book!
Kevin
parttimegardener said:@JungleShadows One question from my side. How come most named varieties I see in this forum as part of US collections seem to be tectorum based cultivars? I mean if you think away the colouring the rosette shape on many cultivars is the very similar if not the same. Is it the size potential, the high variation in colour, the large number of seeds produced... that leads to this popularity of tectorum types?... or am I completely wrong with that impression?
I personally favour the seedlings that have less similarity with tectorum-
thin leaves, dense foliage, velvety to hairy texture...
JungleShadows said:Michael,
I think many reasons we favor tectorum types in the US is because they can take our strange and abrupt changes in weather better than most and they also have much bigger sizes and a large variation in leaf color from green to very dark purple. Seed set is very prolific too. Most of the satin leaved ones are not pure tectorum either as many have marmoreum or wulfenii in the mix. Both add lots of genetic goodies to the tectorum pot!
The velvety ones are definitely more rot-prone here, especially in wet climates. That's one reason Lipstick has been so good though as it has some tectorum blood too. One of the few red velvets that is really a happy camper.
I like broader leaves and darker colors. Some of the ones with narrow leaves look too sparse for my taste. If they have narrow leaves they need to have MANY of them to make a full rosette. There is one seedling that I have jokingly referred to as "Arcachnephobia" as it has a very spidery-looking rosette. I kept it but it will never see the market unless someone comes and steals it from the yard! Am becoming more and more a fan of the heuffs too. They are such nice neat plants and I'm intrigued with the variety from but a single species too.
One of the joys of hybridizing is that not everyone has the same goals or interests. I know some people are horrified that I'm crossing the biggest and blackest things together as they don't want either of those traits in their plants. It is a bit odd for me too as I prefer small daylilies and irises to bigger ones. I do continue on a line of blue semps and also some work with the cobweb types too. In the latter I have 4 or 5 that I'm considering marketing as they are quite different than anything else available and there are two blues that the clinic attendees went crazy for in the spring. However, don't expect to see a lot of small satin semps from me. The ones I have named have been the odd segregant from another project.
Kevin
JungleShadows said:Today is a sort of sad day for me. Polly Bishop's birthday is today and she would have been 105 today. It's amazing how one person can so change your life, but she did.
She taught this young child a love of plants and hybridizing that allows us to make improved versions of what we already have. These simple kind acts turned my life around. I majored in botany and genetics, ending up with a PhD in plant genetics and a 30 year successful career with the USDA. Moreover, she mentored and pushed my avocation in plant breeding and sometimes telling me "not your best work, Kevin" when she would point out some faults I might have overlooked. I often hear her words in my head as I walk through the beds of seedlings, and not try to ignore a fault that means a plant "needs work". Even more mundane things like weeding and planting were things that were instructed for "proper technique" and I still rely on these to this day. Everyone needs such a giving mentor and I hope that, in some way, the clinics have been my way of paying it forward to the semp community.
Kevin
webesemps said:Thank you for taking the time out to tell us how Polly Bishop was so important in your life.
Yes, Kevin, you are in your special way "paying it forward" when you share your sincere interest, infectious enthusiasm, deep knowledge and your dedication in encouraging us to participate, learn and love these plants that Polly loved.
PaleoTemp said:What do we call this type of clone? The no stolon type, I've seen it here and there.
This cultivar is 'Goldmarie'
JungleShadows said:The embedded type of offset is really just a stolon that didn't elongate. Some cultivars do it more often than others. Of course for the heuffs they do this normally, with very thick and short stolons.
Kevin
JungleShadows said:Hi,
Just a few comments.
The Big Bertha one is from Lion King X cantabricum. When Lion King bloomed I was surprised at how much the Lion King flowers were like cantabricums. I asked Howard about this and he said although Lion King was a volunteer seedling its flowers reminded him of cantabricum too. So in '16 I crossed the two of them. It gave some enormous seedlings like Big Bertha and also some very odd seedlings with highly thickened leaves. Lynn showed a couple of these. I haven't numbered any of those yet as I'm not sure they're beautiful but unusual they are. When I do crosses I like to do sibling and back-crosses to intensify the traits coming from each parent and this may have been the reason for these odd ones occurring.
One of the VERY bright seedlings is the F2 of a cross of Plastic X Missouri Rose. The goal was to make a red version of Plastic. I only had ONE seedling from that cross, E20-1, and when it was self pollinated there was a whole string of interesting seedlings. About 1/4 of these had the highly thickened leaves of Plastic and many of them had rose to red rosettes. Brightness on these was incredible. Many years ago Pat Drown had some exceptionally bright and pinkish toned seedlings from Missouri Rose and these seedlings showed that same brightness. Am very excited by these. This year I self pollinate E20-1 again after seeing these.
Anyway some FUN things coming.
Dirt you know that Steve and you are welcome ANY TIME.
Kevin
MelissaHopper said:My Borscht semp is doing something different.
The biggest rosette, the one in the middle, has started to get ruffles on it's leaves. I have never seen this before.
Closeup
Bigtattoo said:Melissa, the 'Borscht' you sent me is showing some rippling as well. I wonder if this is a winter anomaly. Don't some semps develop warts in winter, then they disappear with new growth in the spring? Could this rippling be a similar effect? Kevin, Lynn, anybody??
JungleShadows said:The ripples are due to uneven growth. Groups of adjacent cells are growing faster than the surrounding cells so the cells from the rapidly growing areas bulge upward. The bumps are in the center of the leaf not the edges. These seem to be a proliferation of cells at these points in the leaf.
This line is full of watermarks and they are likewise due to differences in cell expansion and wax deposition.
It will be interesting to see if down the line I can make these features more or less constant.
Variety is the spice of life!
Kevin
valleylynn said:
Thank you for the explanation Kevin. Very interesting.
