Live and learn. I studied Biology ages ago and then went and joined the sea and spent a life time making out the differences in waves and storms. My exposure to plants was just a pipe dream until now. I looked at Pinus strobus 'Aurea', from what i can make out this tree is green in summer and goes golden in winter where as mine does not, but I understand the point that you are trying to put across to me. Ok, I differ to your judgement and lets get on with trying to ID this tree.
No, i have not so far come across any old tree of this Pinus so far and your saying "unless the landscape was bare" has got me to thinking. I have not come across any roxburghii either in this area which I can call old. This area is arid, cold and harsh. Look at the terrain in the following photographs. All rock and very little soil which confuses the issue further. Are they stunted and giving a false look as to age?

Look up 'Harripur, Hazzara'. Don't get confused, that area is huge and i can easily think of four different climatic conditions from zone 9b to zone 7, rocky with no soil to Temperate rain forest. Check the area in the extreme South.
Eastern Pakistan or East Pakistan(BanglaDesh) is now a part of history. This is Western Pakistan or West Pakistan. Eastern end of the Himalayas lies in South East Asia (Burma, Cambodia, etc) and is mostly a tropical rain forest.
Then we have the central Himalayas, Nepal, Tibet, etc which is more of a Alpine rain forest. Mt Everest is here.
Then we have the Western Himalayas and it is total confusion at this end. Other then Himalayas we have Hindu Kush range terminating here near the Pamirs and one European range coming through Turkey, Afghanistan and it to terminates at the Pamirs. You will find Arid, Temperate (look up Neelum Valley), Alpine (look up Concordia, Fairy Meadows). You can also look up Gilgit, Chitral, Hunza, Potohar and Attock if you want to get an idea of what I am trying to put across. Its both, Botanists heaven and nightmare rolled into one.
As to what has happened and what is going on now, less said the better. A hermit living in the plant world and not concerned with what's going on but if the Flora/Fauna/Ecology is getting effected(and it is) then we should sit up and note. Himalayas due to Monsoons is a closed loop weather system having wide ranging effects. El Nino and La Nina will be forgotten in the crisis which can and is taking place. Two billion souls at stake is not a joke.
Regards,
Masud.

You have given me some good clues to follow up Masud.

We have to consider that some species may do well on arid, harsh landscapes such as you describe where other species may have different requirements. It could be the yellow leaved pine is lacking certain minerals which it needs, where Pinus roxburghii copes. I wouldn't discount Pinus strobus 'Aurea' due to possibly lacking what it needs in climatic as well as soil conditions but without good evidence we are stuck. There are many forms of Pinus strobus. Have you read the description of P. strobus? The habit does seem to fit!

Habit: Small to large tree up to over 60 m in its natural habitat. Trunk usually straight and tapering, crown conic, broadening with age, becoming irregularly round-topped, sometimes developing heavy branches. Branch ends often erect with foliage in dense masses.

Could the description of the cones fit your tree? I think it could, given the variants and variation in size.

Cones: Solitary or clustered, pendulous, with long recurved stalks 2-3 cm, narrowly cylindric, often curved, tapering towards the tip, 7-20 cm long, 3-7 cm wide when open, light yellowish brown, very resinous, maturing in 2 years, shedding seeds and falling soon after. Cone scales thin, flexible, exposed end rounded, umbo smooth, pointing forward except near base. Usually a few basal scales reflexed.

I may have confused you with my search terms, by searching "eastern" I was hoping to get a location in the eastern part of what is now the only part called Pakistan, when I was at school there was an east and a west Pakistan but I am aware of the name change to Bangladesh.

The whole world is seemingly being ravaged, some places as you note are at real risk, populations continue to rise while the sustaining planet is depleted.

LoL. When did the school system convert from Roman and Greek history? In my time as far as i can remember it was that. Anyway how did Pinus strobus end up here? Abbotabad, the last frontier and garrison of the British Empire. Wondering if they brought it along with them? History again, enter into search "Frontier Force Regiment" and you will catch the tail of this story
" During the 1840s, after the first and second Anglo-Sikh Wars, Colonel Sir Henry Lawrence, the Honourable East India Company's agent to the Lahore Durbar (brother of the later Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjab Sir John Lawrence, 1st Baron Lawrence) sanctioned the raising of the Corps of Guides and a number of infantry regiments by incorporating veterans from the disbanded Sikh Khalsa army."
1840's? Did they bring this Pinus, i have not as yet found it growing any where else. Durbar is court, not legal but Royal. You also see Lawrence of Arabia in the plant story.
From Pinus to Lawrence.
Regards,
Masud.

Oh no, don't tell me they no longer teach Roman and Greek history? When did that happen?!

I was wondering the same thing, whichever Pine it might be it could easily have been brought for the pleasure of a British Colonel's wife! Seed could have been transported by a bird, or was there just an occasional stray plant amongst seedlings of Pinus roxburghii? Were the Pines planted as a plantation? From what I can see they do look to be well spaced and I think some are in straight lines? The possiblities are endless!

I decided to find out more about Pinus strobus, they do grow in difficult conditions!

Dystrochrepts, Fragiodults, and Normudults are the major great groups occupied by white pine in the central Appalachian Mountains (45). [b]These soils are weathered from acid shales and sandstones either in place (residual soils), deposited on lower slopes (colluvial material), or along stream terraces (alluvial material). The soils are generally well drained and have a coarse loamy to a fine loamy texture.

Pine often grows better than some of its associates on poor soils or sites, such as in northeastern Iowa where white pine was 8 site index points better than oaks on the poor soils

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/s...

Check out the bark of Pinus strobus!

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dend...

Your photo ..

http://garden.org/thread/view_...

Looking at that tree amongst the others, it does look very tall and could be very old!

Trunk shows little taper and is generally branchless for over 1/2 its height.

White pine is a valuable timber species. Although the natural population is much depleted now, it is still preferred for softwood lumber. Builders of sailing ships once sought the tall, straight white pine for masts. The best trees in British North America were stamped by the Crown and reserved for the Royal Navy

http://www.borealforest.org/tr...

Janet give me some time to go through these links then i will answer but after going through the first one i am thinking what on earth do these plants survive on and where do they get their nutrients from, rain, dew and what else?
Birds i am quite sure had a hand in distributing all alien plants (this pest, Lantana for one) and i like your idea of a British Captains or Major wife being the first bird. In those days a Colonel was a King and not in the field.
Back side of this range is Nathiagalli and Khairagalli. High peaks(10000 feet plus). If you search the names you will find that these had the biggest WT/RT (radio communication) relay station of the combined Allied forces between Britannia and the Far East war theatre.
Are we looking for plants or are we doing history? In order to track i suppose we have to.
Regards,
Masud.

Some plants or trees have developed to survive on the nutrients available, I found an interesting pdf last night about the variations of Pinus griffithii which appears to now be Pinus wallichiana ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

http://nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/gtr/...

It's a close relative of subsection Strobi, which includes Pinus strobus.

In my last post, look at the evidence. Tall tree with no branches on at least the lower half, slightly tapering trunk, used for masts on sailing ships. What are the chances there was a plantation of these grown by the British for their sailing ships, which were still in use at the time the British were there with no foreseeable change. The British grew them in North America for this purpose, why not in Pakistan? The British were like fleas on a dog around the world at that time, ships were their only method of transportation from one country to another, and from port to port within a country.

I once read some history on South Australia from around the time it was first settled by the British, my ancestors were in the first 5 year settlement up to 1840. I haven't been able to find the site again, maybe I need to use a different search engine. A ship sailed from the newly established Adelaide to Sydney with a dozen horses, then went on to China where one ship was sunk with a cargo of tableware. Ships were used as lorries would be today.

Yes, history does come into it! The lone tall pine with yellow needles does look very tall and could be very old, who knows, it could be a lone remnant of pines which were grown for use as masts on sailing ships.

Plants were also being discovered at an increasing rate in the 1800's by plant hunters, I found Pinus wallichiana was introduced to Britain in the 1820's ..

http://www.barcham.co.uk/trees...

Finding new locations to grow Pinus strobus for ship's masts could have been prompted by resistance in North America!

Marking of large specimens by the Crown was very controversial in the colonies, and their de facto seizure was a point of great contention among the colonists and played a significant role in the events leading to the American Revolution. During the American Revolution it became a great sport for the patriots to see how many of the King’s trees one could cut down and haul off

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

I found a plant which looks an Acacia and has long, narrow seed pods! Desmanthus pernambucanus .. it's in Pakistan, maybe there is a species of Desmanthus which has flowers like your 'Acacia.'

http://khmer.tropicalforages.i...

In English ..

http://www.tropicalforages.inf...

A list of species ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...

I searched for Desmanthus on the Flora of Pakistan, a long list! Some are possibly synonyms.

http://www.tropicos.org/NameSe...

Thank you Janet for all your trouble and some fine research into how trees wandered from here to their by the flies on a dogs back Liked that one.
When i opened this post my internal battery was a bit down, discharged/flat/ phussed out but now :lol:
Ok give me some time to digest all this data. I will look at it in the morning. You made my day.
Regards and thank you,
Masud.

I'm glad I made a difference to your day Masud.

Tropicos is outdated or a project which did start up(plus their server is 486 based???) but then faltered, maybe lack of funds but most probably due to the security situation plus the fact that mountain dwellers where ever in the world are very suspicious of outsiders. Which does not mean that it cannot be done, you just have to pander to the mental psychology of these mountain folks and they will roll out the red carpet. Desmanthus is absent from Tropicos list. Ok here you can't take the ghee out with the straight finger, you need a crooked one.
http://www.google.com.pk/searc...
Flowers are common now i need to find a unarmed one. Also i have to check if it folds its leaves after sunset like "Forget me not".
Desmanthus virgatus (L.) Willd. (Acacia virgata (L.) Gaertn.)(Acuan virgatum (L.) Medik)(Mimosa virgata L.)
Found the above lone representative in China.
Problem is 1.5 meters tall, while mine is 4+ meters tall. Like the fact that unlike Acacia it like its roots waterlogged like mine does.
Nepal has none. Janet plz find me the link to the Indian data base. They should have it somewhere.
Ok, now i am distracted found Decaloba and it has hooked me.
Sorry Janet while looking for one you get hooked on to another. Let me appreciate this Passion flower for a while but at least from Acacia to Prosopis to Desmanthus.
Regards,
Masud.

Searching often brings up gems Masud, that's half the fun! Passiflora subgenus Decaloba, very nice.

http://www.mobot.org/mobot/res...

Which Indian database do you want Masud? The same as the Flora of Pakistan on Tropicos? I googled and found it but there seems to be little to be found, I found a list of locations for India though under the 'More' tab! You can choose India in the drop down 'country' box.

http://www.tropicos.org/Locati...

http://www.tropicos.org/Projec...

Under 'Tools' you can search for 'specimen geographic search'

Thank you Janet. Just now looking in fascination at the BugLife Cubit. Next time i see any exotic ones, out with my camera and a few pics for you as long as you don't ask me to ID them. One helping(plants) on the plate seems to be more then enough. Would a scarlet, with bands of egg yolk yellow and black nine inch long millipede do?

Enjoy the hues of red while I find a unarmed whatever. Unarmed ones are Australian as far as i remember and the flies have been busy as bees.
Regards,
Masud.

Very nice plant! Is it a Begonia?

I once found a site of world wide wattle, I found it again. There are photos of most Australian species, not many from elsewhere.

http://www.worldwidewattle.com...

http://www.worldwidewattle.com...

Would a scarlet, with bands of egg yolk yellow and black nine inch long millipede do?

Oh yes! Anything would do, post all you like Masud! I would love to see any that you find, I can't say I will be able to ID them either but I know I will have to try! I don't think there is a good reference source for bugs in Pakistan.

As soon as I learn how to take that quality of photographs of bugs and from so close. You can really make a photograph into a piece of art You seem to be good at Photoshop or some thing, those images

Reference source for any thing you want you will find in THE INDIA OFFICE ARCHIVES look for the gazettes and if you think any one did a better job afterwards even bugs. That millipede I found once in my bed so i suppose did they. The bright colours just growled out, keep away. I don't think I will find it again.
Ok, now its the turn of wattles. Acacia and Pinus, the rest is on hold.
Regards,
Masud.

Don't worry about quality of photos Masud, I've been working on taking macro photos of insects for a while now. No I don't have Photoshop, I use the free Windows Live editing programme which is fairly basic but good. The quality comes from using a Nikon D90 (DSLR) and learning how to use manual settings which I always use. I also use a Nikon 105mm micro (macro) lens with a Nikon 2x teleconverter, That gives me an equivalent of 315mm on a full size sensor, these cameras have a slightly smaller sensor so giving a narrower field of view. The result is 1.5 times the equivalent in a fixed lens, and with this lens you can take photos about 11 inches from subject to sensor. I don't use a tripod either, insects don't wait and come in awkward places, but the lens has VR (vibration reduction) which helps. The rest is practise!

You found the millipede in the India Office Archives? All I could find was historical stuff, ha! I just added the word millipede to the search and found an archived book!

http://archive.org/details/cba...

Check the Gazette's. Enter into search gazette. Gazette of India and field gazettes were comprehensive field diary's every thing observed was noted down in them. Some thing like the Admiralty, Notices for Mariners or M notices.
Noted the data for the camera. thanks. All my problems stem from these digital cameras I am used to manual with roll film, infinitely adjustable and macro lens.
Regards,
Masud.

Bringing the discussion back here.

KAMasud said:
I know, now its the leaves but again controversy. Please look at these sites and tell if they are reputable.
http://www.starrenvironmental....
http://www.starrenvironmental....
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/...
http://palmaris.org/html/acaci...
Mature and immature differences. My tree may be high but only three years old. Now the seed pods.
Regards,
Masud.

http://garden.org/thread/view_...

The photos look to be correct Masud, but I think if your trees had both types of leaves they would be showing mostly the simple leaves at that size. Look at more on the Hawaii site ..

http://www.starrenvironmental....

Seed pods are quite different too.

http://www.google.co.uk/search...