So in the end, if you have crosses with several types, is the resulting offspring defined by its appearance? (Emma Cook x (plicata x luminata))

Midnight Velvet would be a good choice Patty.

Midnight Velvet Thomas Johnson 2014 TB

Check it out on the "Mid-America" Garden thread!

So if I'm understanding this -- it's either a plicata OR an Emma Cook -- is that right? Which is confusing because in the example of horses given -- regardless of whether a horse is a Tobiano or an Overo -- he/she is STILL a paint. The designations are an indicator of which type of paint. And yes -- genes do determine which kind of paint a given horse is -- but an experienced person can look at the horse and know. This is not the case with Irises, if even the hybridizer does not know which he has produced? I feel like I'm missing something important........

For instance -- exactly what is Clothed In Glory?


Emma Cook or no?

Also -- what is Designer Art?


Is it an Emma Cook because there is no rim on the standards?

Muddymitts said: Which is confusing because in the example of horses given -- regardless of whether a horse is a Tobiano or an Overo -- he/she is STILL a paint. The designations are an indicator of which type of paint. And yes -- genes do determine which kind of paint a given horse is -- but an experienced person can look at the horse and know.

If I restated your question like this - "regardless of whether an iris is a Plicata or an Emma Cook - it is still an iris. The designations are an indicator of which type of iris" would that provide some clarity? Not sure if I'm explaining this well at all.

An experienced person can in fact look at an iris and (usually) tell whether it is a Plicata or Emma Cook. Failing that, you can always look back through its ancestry. Clothed in Glory and Designer's Art are both examples of the Emma Cook pattern, you can tell by how the pigment is applied to the petal edges.

tveguy3 said:Well, I did a "small" amount of research (a little knowledge can be dangerous), anyway, I found out some things about anthocyanin pigment. A part of their job in a plant is to absorb some of the color spectrom of the sun light, which would explain the almost glow of the Glaciatas, as they would reflect more light then obsorb it? Just a guess. Anyway, thanks, Kent for that explanation, I think that helped me a lot. Now one thing remains, How do you know about horse color genetics? A horse can carry both of the genes, one for Tobiano, and one for Overo, and they will look mostly white with a few patches of other color. Can an iris carry both the Plicata, and the Emma Cook patterns? If they are separate alleles that should be possible. Wonder what they would look like?

My grandparents were ranchers. I grew up around horses, although I haven't been on one in about 20 years.

Plicata is a recessive trait, so irises can carry the genes for it without expressing it. A number of hybridizers, particularly Joe Ghio and Tom Johnson have been working on combining plicatas with other irises. At least part of the result is what Joe Ghio calls the "Line & Speckles" pattern.

Thank you for your answers. I may not be able to tell ALL of them apart but I will know a few. And I know that they are definitely different iris. When a novice like me is with a group of irisarians and they use phrases like 'Emma Cook pattern' I try to see what they are seeing in that particular iris. I will be better able to tell them apart now. Thank you to all who shared your knowledge on this subject.

No -- that would more relate to *regardless of whether a paint is a tobiano or overo -- it is still a horse*. It doesn't help you to identify what is a tobiano or an overo. See?

I think what I was looking for is a firm definition by which I can identify the two types of Irises in the future -- a frame of reference for identification.

You may have given it to me -- "you can tell by how the pigment is applied to the petal edge".

In both Designer Art and Clothed in Glory -- the colored edge is not a distinct band -- it's more of an *aura* of color. And it's a soft version of the color. And I believe this is true of Queen's Circle too -- gotta go look at it again. And the standards have no rim color at all. This is true for these three -- is it true for all Emma Cooks?

In the plicata example that you showed (can't remember the name) -- it had rim colors well-defined and a saturated color, and on both standards and falls. Would that qualify as a definition of a plicata Iris?

Am I close?

Sorry to be late when asked a question, but it has been answered. Emma Cook is not related to a plicata.

The trouble with some luminata TBs is that they have hardiness problems in New England. If I were crossing those (which I am not as I only hybridize medians) I would put their pollen on a very hardy plicata & follow the line of hardy results. the pattern would eventually show up on a very hardy plant. Much easier than breeding horses as you don't have to find a good home for those that don't work out.

Ummm -- well uh Lucy -- that's one of the reasons that I'm not getting started on hybridizing. I would not be able to discard the unsatisfactory babies.

In Plicatas, the band of color may be deeply saturated, especially on the outer edge, but the inner edge usually shows speckles of pigment:



In some cases, the speckling can go all the way to the center of the petal:



Emma Cooks may also have deeply saturated bands of color, but the inside edge is "cleaner". The pigment may follow the veins towards the inner part of the petal, but you don't see those speckles

Muddymitts said:

In the plicata example that you showed (can't remember the name) -- it had rim colors well-defined and a saturated color, and on both standards and falls. Would that qualify as a definition of a plicata Iris?

No, there are plicatas that don't have bands of color on the standards:

Muddymitts said:
In both Designer Art and Clothed in Glory -- the colored edge is not a distinct band -- it's more of an *aura* of color. And it's a soft version of the color. And I believe this is true of Queen's Circle too -- gotta go look at it again. And the standards have no rim color at all. This is true for these three -- is it true for all Emma Cooks?

Yes, Emma Cooks lack bands on the standards. However, there ARE non-Plicatas that have bands of color on both the standards and falls:



I don't think there is a special name for this pattern, the iris people I know just refer to them as Bicolors (a pattern that covers a wide range of things).

Good explanation Kent........it seems to me that we are approaching the point where it is difficult to put some of the new things being introduced into neat patterns.

That's for sure, some varieties really blur the lines.

That's why I would rather not use the accepted terms, and prefer MY nomenclature ...Ones I like, and ones I REALLY like ! ...Arlyn

Kent, thank you for the lessons, and it really helped having the photos as examples. I gave myself a "pop quiz" and went thru some iris on the database to see if I could guess the correct pattern. Some, like Bubble Bubble, still threw me but I've learned a lot through this discussion. (Mainly, like how much I don't know!). Always fun to learn!

Thanks again, Kent, I think that cleared up a lot for me. It's always nice when things fit into neat little patterns, but as ususal, nature has it's own way of expressing itself. I guess we have to look at things more as generalizations, rather than absolutes.

Very well stated Tom. Thank you for bringing the 'Emma Cook' subject up and Thank You Kent for answering a lot of our questions. I did learn a lot and I will be putting it to personal use when viewing iris this spring. Just like Patty, sort of a quiz, when I see an Iris with unusual markings trying to decide which pattern it fits into if either.......can't wait till iris season!

Yes -- I've learned a lot too. Never heard of Emma Cooks until this discussion (I don't get out much). Thanks Kent -- for taking the time to elucidate.

But the last one threw me -- why is it not a plicata? Because of the genes? If so, then the only way to be sure about an Iris's designation is to know its parentage? Boy if that's the case, I'm in trouble. I have all I can do to remember the names of the ones in my gardens -- I will NEVER be able to remember the breeding.

You can always look it up on the data base and find out what it is, but not knowing won't stop you from loving it!

Yup -- that's what I'll have to do.

I've never had a problem with that part Tom (loving them) -- you may have noticed...............