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Jun 13, 2014 12:28 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
""He also described the differences between the two cultivars:
"A comparison of the flowers of the two clones, Flora Pleno and Kwanso. The flowers of the Flora Pleno Daylily ... in comparison with those of Kwanso ... have a greater number of well-formed petals, the number of stamens and aborted stamens per flower is less, and the pistil is more frequently fully aborted or not in evidence. The central column of the flower is shorter and the flower is more compact.""
I don't think here the term "compact" refers to size, but to the "tightness" so to speak of the bloom? I am thinking that Flore Pleno is actually a larger bloom?
I do have more petals on average on what I am calling Flore Pleno, also "looser", less well formed petals on what I am referring to as Kwanso. I'll have to check on the stamens and aborted stamens( I have not idea what an aborted stamen looks like), never noticed any of that.
Now I also need to check on that "central column of the flower is shorter" never noticed that either.
Last edited by Seedfork Jun 13, 2014 1:13 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 13, 2014 1:15 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
Just went out and took photos:
This is what I am calling Flore Pleno" Ok, I can't see stamens or a pistil, and the bloom center is not sticking up as high as on the Kwanso bloom.
Thumb of 2014-06-13/Seedfork/297574
Thumb of 2014-06-13/Seedfork/abe264

And this is what I am calling Kwanso: I can see stamen but no pistil and the center of the bloom is sticking up high.
Thumb of 2014-06-13/Seedfork/1dc12f
Thumb of 2014-06-13/Seedfork/0b764a

So I thought I now knew the difference between the two, but I decided to look at some of my other plants, I found some that now I would consider Kwanso, but the foliage was much more similar to Flore Pleno, found some that I thought would be Kwanso, but the center of the bloom was not tall.
Found some that I am pretty sure are Flore Pleno, just two stamens per bloom.
Now I am just as confused as ever.
Last edited by Seedfork Jun 13, 2014 1:51 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 13, 2014 1:40 PM CST
Name: Sharon
Calvert City, KY (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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Seed, click on the photo and look at the two blooms that I sent earlier.
What do you think they are? I'd really like to know your thoughts.

The more we learn and compare, the less I know for sure. I wish mine were blooming now, but with such a late spring and since they are usually the last to bloom, it will be awhile.
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Jun 13, 2014 1:48 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
If I had to guess, and keep in mind this is a total guess, I really can't see the smallish (to me) photo that well, I would guess Kwanso. Based on the fact that I can make out some stamens and the fact that the center of the bloom looks rather tall. I really can't get a good look at how compact and organized the petals are, so back to square one, it could be Flore Pleno. Rolling on the floor laughing
Last edited by Seedfork Jun 13, 2014 1:59 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 13, 2014 1:53 PM CST
Name: Sharon
Calvert City, KY (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Native Plants and Wildflowers Dog Lover Ferns Daylilies Irises Cat Lover
Smiling Same for me at this point!
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Jun 13, 2014 3:17 PM CST
Name: Anna Sartin
Cincinnati, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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This is mine. I thought it was Flore Pleno but now I'm not sure...

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Jun 13, 2014 3:35 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
My first guess would be Kwanso, my second guess would be Flore Pleno.
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Jun 13, 2014 3:58 PM CST
Name: Sharon
Calvert City, KY (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Native Plants and Wildflowers Dog Lover Ferns Daylilies Irises Cat Lover
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Jun 13, 2014 5:53 PM CST
Name: Celia
West Valley City, Utah (Zone 7a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Irises Plant Identifier Hummingbirder Birds
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In my experience, Flore Pleno has those crinkled edges and the petals are more evenly distributed. Kwanso is more scattered looking. Mine looks more like someone wadded up the flower and put it back on the scape. Does that make sense? I was given this one by a grower in my neighborhood who said it is Kwanso. He'd had his for years by that name.
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Jun 13, 2014 5:59 PM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
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I don't know if this will help at all but I only have 'Variegated Kwanso' so the flower should be the same as 'Green Kwanso'. I don't believe there is a variegated 'Flore Pleno'. Now to try and upload an image for the first time!
Thumb of 2014-06-13/sooby/39c766
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Jun 13, 2014 6:00 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
Thank You!
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Jun 13, 2014 8:38 PM CST
Name: Hans K.
Germany - Wiesbaden (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1
in my opinon

Flore Pleno is more coloful, the foliage is broader (sometimes more than 2") and with structure

Thumb of 2014-06-14/Heart2Heart/8a0f39


, tepals are more than 12 ... and i love it.
flore pleno
Thumb of 2014-06-14/Heart2Heart/231003


I am guided here at my plants and on the side of Plodeck.
http://www.hemerocallis-specie...

han
Last edited by Heart2Heart Jun 13, 2014 8:47 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 14, 2014 5:01 AM CST
Name: Hans K.
Germany - Wiesbaden (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1
sooby said:I don't know if this will help at all but I only have 'Variegated Kwanso' so the flower should be the same as 'Green Kwanso'. I don't believe there is a variegated 'Flore Pleno'. Now to try and upload an image for the first time!
Thumb of 2014-06-13/sooby/39c766



... interessting

should it be same as `Green Kwanso`! So if we belive in in hybridizer information ... Variegata is a cross of Green Kwazo and Flore Pleno.
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Variegated Kwanso')

So ... Stout could it also call it as Variegata Flore Pleno - but didnĀ“t
For me, your flower looks like a cross between both cultivars.

han
Last edited by Heart2Heart Jun 14, 2014 5:03 AM Icon for preview
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Jun 14, 2014 6:24 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
I find the foliage photos in the ATP data base of Variegated Kwanso interesting. In the fist photo I can see a distinct well formed fan shape to the foliage, in the third photo it just looks like..(not a well formed fan shape). Is there a more technical term for that? The leaves also look wide like Hans described.
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Jun 14, 2014 7:23 AM CST
Name: Vickie
southern Indiana (Zone 6b)
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Oh my goodness.. my head is spinning Confused Confused Confused But I am so enjoying reading this discussion.

Now I am thinking that my picture that I posted in the database as 'Kwanso' is really 'Flore Pleno'. What does everyone here think?


Seed, I have to say that your side-by-side pictures are wonderful. I have to agree about the foliage. Maybe there is something there that will help us figure this all out.

Sharon, I am anxious to see your pictures of the coloration difference between the two.

I have a whole row of 'Kwanso'/ 'Flore Pleno' planted along the back fence, so I will have to study it and see if maybe I have both. I have buds on some of them, but since I just put them there in 2012, some may not bloom this year. Have to wait and see.

Meanwhile, the ditch lilies that are singles are blooming all over the place in the area and they are so beautiful en masse!
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
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Jun 14, 2014 8:36 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
Being no money is being placed on any of these bets, I would bet that your picture is Kwanso. That being based solely on the shape and height of the center of the flower.
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Jun 14, 2014 8:46 AM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
Seedfork said:if he mentioned anything about the foliage?

Stout did not indicate very much, but this is what he wrote "The new leaves of ramets of Flore Pleno appear somewhat earlier in spring than do the leaves of Kwanso and they are more bluish green in color." Ramets are fans.
In another article Stout wrote, "The propagation of these two daylilies is solely by vegetative means. It can not be otherwise, for the pistils of the flowers are entirely impotent." and "The writer has obtained entirely green-leaved plants under both names Kwanso and Flore-Pleno from various nurserymen and from various botanical gardens. These have been grown side by side for comparison and study. There seems to be no difference in the color of the flowers and the various aspects of the habit of growth. Some plants, however, have all flowers very double, while other plants have semi-double flowers, with also many inter-grades; various grades of doubleness may be found on the same plant."

Lastly he wrote (by clon he means clones), "It is generally considered that the clon of the Daylily Flore Pleno introduced by Veitch & Son is less double than the Daylily Kwanso. It is to be noted, however, that these conditions are exactly reversed in the first illustrations of the two. The plate of von Siebold's plant published in 1866 (Gartenflora, pl. 500) shows a semi-double flower, while that of Veitch's plant (The Floral Magazine I: pl. 13) shows a flower much more double."

Stout would have examined the two plants beginning in the 1920s about 60 years after they were introduced into cultivation.
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Jun 14, 2014 9:03 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
admmad,
Thanks very much for that response with all that great information! This has lead me to believe that as a gardener, I really have no need to distinguish between the two. If the only difference a trained eye can detect between the two plants foliage is a little blue tint, and if you don't get reliable consistent differences in the blooms, to me there is just no point on trying to guess. Now that I know more, what I at first thought was an incorrect and irresponsible representation by sellers of calling the plants 'fulva Kwanso Flore Pleno' I now consider to probably be the best policy.
Looking at my plants, some with very different foliage, bloom coloration, and shape, it appears to me that there must be several very similar daylilies available also, so I guess mine will display that very impressive name often seen on many of my other garden plants, NOID!
Last edited by Seedfork Jun 14, 2014 10:44 AM Icon for preview
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Jun 14, 2014 9:10 AM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
It may be possible to distinguish the two clones when grown side by side if what Stout noticed is true wherever they are grown. That is definitely unknown as the amount of doubling in daylily flowers depends very strongly on where and perhaps how they are grown. Certainly the variegated double should always be Kwanso. Bear in mind that Stout grew the plants in New York and that doubling seems to decrease the further North daylilies are grown.

Stout wrote "Individual super-double flowers, that are fully sterile and which have no stamens and no traces of anther sacs on the petaloids are occasionally present among the numerous flowers of the Flore Pleno clone."

He also showed black and white photos of two flowers, one of each clone. The flower of Flore Pleno had 23 parts in total and the flower of Kwanso had 27 parts in total. However, the Flore Pleno flower had 18 petal-type parts while the Kwanso flower had 13 petal type parts (sepals counted as petal-type parts).
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Jun 14, 2014 9:26 AM CST
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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Seedfork - Great thread topic! I've been enjoying the ride ...

Vickie - I'd sure love to see a photo of the area of your yard with all these beautiful ditchlilies! Please take a photo for us to enjoy!

Maurice - Thanks for jumping in on the debatable topics here on the daylily forum! You always add such wonderful insight and information!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden

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