Plant Database forum: correction to hydridizer name in misc proposal

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skylark
Sep 12, 2014 10:22 AM CST
sorry, just submitted misc name change for begonia rieger blitz - and made a mistake. the hydridizer name is Dummen, not Dummel.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Sep 12, 2014 12:10 PM CST

Plants Admin

We don't have a section to add a hybridizer name so there are a few errors that need correcting. Let me get back to you. Green Grin!
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Name: Dave Whitinger
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dave
Sep 12, 2014 12:15 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Some of the custom databases have a hybridizer field and I've often wondered if we should make that field universal for all plant entries.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Sep 12, 2014 12:34 PM CST

Plants Admin

I declined one and corrected the series name.
Rieger Begonia (Begonia x hiemalis 'Amstel Blitz')

When adding a new plant, pay particular attention to the trade and series notaion:
* An explanation of trade names and series names
Trade names are generally trademarked names that sellers use for marketing the plants. A plant with a trade name will always have a cultivar name (often a series of numbers and letter that don't spell anything). The tradename almost always includes a (tm) symbol. When you have a group of different but similar plants that have trade names, then you can group them by using Series.


(By the way Dave, in that last sentence, you have trade name as one word, my spellchecker highlighted that. Green Grin! )



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[Last edited by Calif_Sue - Sep 12, 2014 3:54 PM (+)]
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Sep 12, 2014 2:15 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Thanks Sue, I fixed that. Smiling
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Sep 12, 2014 2:40 PM CST

Plants Admin

Skylark, this is one of your declined proposals:

Genus: Begonia
Species: (begonia x hiemalis)
Cultivar: Dragone rosewood
Common: winter flowering begonia
Tradename: red fox (dummen)
Series: dragone

You should have initial capped all of the words but the species name, the species should not have been enclosed in parentheses, and you should have left the tradename line blank. The Dummen Group is the breeder, and Red Fox is one of the group's licensors. Neither of these is the trade name of the plant. The plant has no trade name because neither Dragone nor Rosewood is followed by a copyright or trademark symbol.

This thread may answer some of your questions:

The thread "Common errors in new plant proposals" in Plant Database forum
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skylark
Sep 12, 2014 3:19 PM CST
so, you're now declining proposals 'cause of some capitals missing? (i got at least half!) - that's a bit confusing. so this is a new policy?
and are you going to follow up with 'resubmit' msg like the one above? or this is just a one time deal? and i'll have to figure out myself why it was declined?
'cause typing up msg takes longer then correcting 2 caps? just curious...except of course when there are 100 of them ev. day...
perhaps then we need some kind of error-on-submit msg along the lines: incorrect format. so i'll know, it's just caps, quotes, parens and other such wonders?
i can handle caps (i saw post about conventions, and intended to follow surely...just somehow not all the way yet, but promise to be more dilligent).
i just went and looked at other entries in the DB and they were listed as Begonia (Begonia x hiemalis) - so i put mine the same by example, and you're saying don't put parens? - now that's REALLY confusing.
i think next time i'll just open up a post right here and whatever i can provide i'll provide and let you figure it out. 'cause some stuff i just am not sure about, i am not a specialist. And if that won't fly, hey, i'll just skip some more complicated entries all-together and dump it in a generic entry. i see plenty of cultivar pics that belong in cultivar entries , dumped in generic instead - 'cause it's too much to submit a proposal, perhaps? in my view it's not a good road to take though.
you see, i thought i was quite careful about mine, but this is getting a bit hairy.
plus i am not sure if i can figure out 'trade name' or series or licencer by myself. i actually took it from the horses mouth so to speak: red fox site
http://www.redfox.de/patweb/Default.aspx?TabID=62&DirectLink...
and there it said series Amstel, not Red Fox Amstel. how am i supposed to know? i figured, you'll know better anyway... and i put (dummen) in parens 'cause i was not sure if red fox IS a trade name or not, but i thought it's useful to know hybridizer. Now you're calling them breeders. is that different from hybridizer/licencer?
in jest: if and when you start insisting that all msgs should have proper caps too...i'll prolly loose interest in posting.... Whistling
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Sep 12, 2014 3:33 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Moderators can't edit a proposal, unfortunately. They can only approve or decline it. If they approve it with an error present then the error goes into the DB.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Sep 12, 2014 3:41 PM CST

Plants Admin

It might be best to leave the trade name blank when you submit proposals. The line is meant for the trademarked or copyrighted name of the plant, not for a company breeding or selling it.

Yes, breeder is different from hybridizer and licensor. The Dummen Group is the breeder, growing plants that may have been hybridized by someone else. The licensor is a company authorized to issue licenses to wholesale companies wishing to sell the plants. None of these belongs on the trade name line or anywhere else in a new plant proposal.

Yes, typing up a message takes less time than correcting the lower case letters to upper case in the long run because the person submitting the incorrect proposals ideally should start submitting correct proposals.

The system adds the parentheses around the genus and species names, so that's what confused you. The Begonia (Begonia x hiemalis) entry you cite lists the common name and then the genus and species in parentheses, but you also repeated the genus name in your parentheses, so the finished product would have said:

winter flowering Begonia (Begonia (begonia x hiemalis) red fox (dummen))

The trade name takes precedence over the cultivar name, so your entry would not have included Dragone Rosewood in the name.

When you propose new plants, it's sometimes best only to list the genus and the cultivar name. If you want to add anything else, look up this thread and follow the advice it provides:

The thread "Common errors in new plant proposals" in Plant Database forum
Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Sep 12, 2014 3:45 PM CST

Plants Admin

My mentor Zuzu added further clarification and educated me in some of my errors. nodding
Our posting corrections here is to help anyone with database details that may need tweaking, to help everyone with tips. It was more than just capitalization. Also if we simply approved something with several errors and then went in and corrected it ourselves, it doesn't help anyone else to learn from it. I am in a constant learning mode here! Thumbs up
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skylark
Sep 12, 2014 5:52 PM CST
thanks for clarifying - i am honestly trying to remember and understand, it's just a lot for such seemingly simple issue. is it not possible to check for some formatting errors thru the script? like the 1st capital?and then just convert it prior to submition? wouldn't that be simpler then rejection and resubmittal?
and i think it would be useful to know if rejection happened due to a bad cap/quote or due to a more serious nomenclature issue.
and i did not know that you can't change the proposal :). i thought the way it works, i supply as much as i can, and then you'll edit whatever is not right. you know much better about a lot of nomenclature, obviously. and most people would defer to your correction. + i thought you might have links handy with all sorts references for names, for verification. so that's a wrong assumption?
the trade names are not difficult WHEN you can access trade name databases - i know those exist. don't they have them for plants? of course, they are not free usually.
but i thought that perhaps some of the members are also pros and might have access to such data?
the main reason why i wanted to add 'dumen' and 'red fox' to the entry is: i find it very useful for gathering plant info/specs when i know who hybridizes/produces/grows them. they often have better info on growing parameters then just sellers.
what if i instead just put a link to redfox.com - for reference - in the comments? is that a good or bad idea? because many people sell these begonias, but if you look at names, they are all over. so some sites are 'more accurate' then others.
another thing that makes me wonder:
it should be quite simple to clone the existing similar entry and just change a color of the cultivar in the series. is it necessary to even have sep DB entries, 'cause the color is different and hence the name is 'slightly' different?
there is one there for 'dragone sunset' - which is one color of many in the series. but there are more. and, of course, we can only post our own pics. so, unless a member is willing to submit a proposal for a new cultivar name in order to put a pic in, it won't even BE in the system. while, if you go to red fox site - you can get a full list of all series and 'color names' in a jiffy .... and put them all in at once!
like you could have 'dragone' series entry - and just sev buttons with 'add-on' name. so to add a new one - you just type in a new color name and that will generate an auto proposal? with fewer errors? and the pics can be grouped based on color-name, but the comments/growers notes belong together, perhaps, for all dragones?
and all of this, so i can put in my dragone rosewood pic in faster! I'm all ears!
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Sep 12, 2014 6:36 PM CST

Plants Admin

I'll try to answer your questions one by one, but there are so many of them in your post that I might miss a few.

I suppose a script could be added to correct formatting errors, but it's much simpler to submit correct proposals from the start. The process is a simple one to learn and to do correctly.

I think you underestimate the number of proposals we handle. Many of your proposals were declined, but six were approved and then had to be corrected by an admin immediately afterward. Correcting 6 names may not sound like much of a chore, but @jmorth, for instance, has added more than 12,000 plants. Luckily, he follows the rules of capitalization. What if he didn't? The mods and admins are also gardeners, after all. Big Grin Do you think we'd rather correct more than 12,000 names than work on our gardens?

I agree that you should know the reasons that your proposals are declined. I always send an explanation when I decline a proposal. Do you read the explanations that are included in the decline message?

Your remarks about a trade name database suggest that you're still confused about the term. No one requires a trade name database to enter a trade name. If the name of the plant you're adding is followed by a copyright or trademark symbol, it's a trade name. If it isn't followed by one, it's a cultivar name.

Hybridizer, producer, and grower information is useful, I agree, and you can add that information in a comment about the plant.

Yes, it is necessary to have separate entries for plants with different names, even if only the color is different. People usually add the plants they have bought or are growing in their gardens, but some members seek out websites like the Red Fox site and add all of the plants listed on the site. The "color" name you're referring to is actually the cultivar name, and we need a separate entry for each cultivar.

I created an entry for your Dragone Rosewood plant earlier today. It's here:

Begonia (Begonia x hiemalis 'Dragone Rosewood')
[Last edited by zuzu - Sep 12, 2014 7:05 PM (+)]
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skylark
Sep 12, 2014 9:11 PM CST
---I suppose a script could be added to correct formatting errors, but it's much simpler to submit correct proposals from the start.
i am a software developer: 'correct data-entry' is an oxi-moron; there are always edits to check that it is correct. there are always new people that don't know the rules - and i am far from 'the least educated' on the subject, and i actually have been making an effort ;). it WOULD be much simpler to set-up an editing script, then to continually educate everybody thru personal/public posts. even a FAC is more useful then once or twice posted rules somewhere...you don't have a FAQ, right? for data-base subject for this site: entry/rules/search/etc? the reason i was submitting incorrect entries is because i could not find any clear concise rules on the subject.
-- I always send an explanation when I decline a proposal. Do you read the explanations that are included in the decline message?
yes i do read them , but they could be avoided if a system msg is generated instead. it'll save you a lot of time doing explaining, at least for simple general things.
--Your remarks about a trade name database suggest that you're still confused about the term.
i am not confused about the term. for corporate names/trade-marks etc, there are reference data-bases: to avoid duplicates and disputes. i know that for a fact. those are the databases i was talking about. of course, for plants there are also patents. but i am talking about just 'Trade mark names' databases. i was just wondering if smth like that exists for cultivar names. i don't know; i was asking.
yes, i know that you can put <tm> on anything and it gives you some protection - but hydridizers usually register their names - that is the databases i was talking about. for many things there are commercial databases that do referencing services for var. purposes.
-- The "color" name you're referring to is actually the cultivar name, and we need a separate entry for each cultivar.
i understand that it is part of a cultivar name; but if that is the ONLY difference between entries - they can appear separate, but the entry process/proposal can be simplified.
i was talking from the technical processing point of view and to facilitate ease of entry so-to-speak. i am curious what dave would say about my comments, form tech point of view?
[Last edited by skylark - Sep 13, 2014 7:42 AM (+)]
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Name: Kent Pfeiffer
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KentPfeiffer
Sep 12, 2014 10:25 PM CST

Plants Admin

A simpler option, if the process of adding a plant to the database doesn't click for you, is to just post a new thread in the Plant Database forum that says something along the lines of 'Please add such and such plant to the database'. Then one of the admins will add it for you.

Ideally, you would also include a link to some sort of reference for the plant. But, it's not strictly necessary.
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skylark
Sep 13, 2014 7:49 AM CST
the process is simple enough, what i was talking about is 'conceptual' improvement: error prevention/improvement of user interface.
i was having ideas. and perhaps, next time i WILL just request an addition here and be done. Shrug!

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