Hello again 2Kids1Bike,

Excellent post. You answered all of my questions and then some. I don't participate in Social Media for a variety of reasons. Being too busy is one. I don't know how our winds compare with those in other states, but our winds can damage trees and structures. My homemade wire cages partially protected some of my breeder zinnia specimens.

Wind was not the only threat -- some hungry birds would tear a zinnia bloom apart for the seeds. A bird just landing on a zinnia bloom can break its stem. I put up a few small windmills to partially repel the birds. With the birds and the winds and whatever (flying garbage can lids), there was a kind of "survival of the fittest (or luckiest)" thing going on in my garden.

I won't take offense if you are busy with other things.

ZM

ZenMan said:
I won't take offense if you are busy with other things.

lol. I was trying to make you feel better that I was going to give you a break from my redundant beginner questions.

Hi 2Kids1Bike,

"...I was going to give you a break from my redundant beginner questions."

We like your questions. Especially the ones that we think we know the answers to. It's too bad I don't know everything.

ZM

2K1B ~ I picked up a copy of THE ZINNIA BREEDER'S HANDBOOK by Tiffany Jones on Amazon. Also a couple others for a variety of other flowers, if you might be interested.

PLANT BREEDING FOR THE HOME GARDENER by Joseph Tychonievich

BREEDING NEW PLANTS AND FLOWERS by Charles Webb

Honestly, I don't know how far I will get with all of this, though I have successfully bred irises it was more just to see if I could do it. I did not produce anything worth introducing, but they were pretty,

Now, due to advancing years, I am not sure how much more I will be able to do. I am hoping to grow a productive vegetable garden this year and keep the weeds out of the landscaped areas and the flower beds.🌼

evelyninthegarden said: ~ I picked up a copy of THE ZINNIA BREEDER'S HANDBOOK by Tiffany Jones on Amazon. Also a couple others for a variety of other flowers, if you might be interested.

PLANT BREEDING FOR THE HOME GARDENER by Joseph Tychonievich

BREEDING NEW PLANTS AND FLOWERS by Charles Webb


I am hoping to grow a productive vegetable garden this year and keep the weeds out of the landscaped areas and the flower beds.🌼

Thank you so much for the referrals on the books! I do have Tiffany's book and have learned so much from it. I am hoping she considers another one with more detail on some of the topics in the book! We are fortunate enough to have her as a member in the social media zinnia breeding group and learn from her when she has time to post there.

I hope you are able to garden as much as you would like this season.

Thank you again for the referrals.

So here is a new topic…

I am planting seeds from the same variety that are advertised as producing singles, semi-doubles and doubles

I think I read that there are times that the shape of a seed will indicate which of the seeds will likely produce singles or doubles. Is my understanding correct and is there any reference here including photos?

So that is my first question. My second question…

Can a seed be affected by a growing method to the point that it produces singles rather than doubles. In other words can I mess up a seed so it only produces singles or can I do something to the seeds where they will produce mostly doubles?

I suppose the question should be when a seed is harvested is it already in the genes that it will be a single or double?

"I am planting seeds from the same variety that are advertised as producing singles, semi-doubles and doubles"

That sounds like an honest description of many varieties.

LorettaNJ said: "I am planting seeds from the same variety that are advertised as producing singles, semi-doubles and doubles"

That sounds like an honest description of many varieties.

Hi Loretta,

Yes, definitely honest. The purpose of my post though was because I am not clear on some info I have recently "heard".

I have just read that the shape or form of zinnia seeds could potentially give us a clue as to whether they will be singles or doubles.

I have also read recently that single or double zinnias could be determined when they grow depending on different environments or using different methods. I have heard of germination rates being affected and I can see that but I am not clear on these other two.

That was just an aside, 2K1B referring to the fact that many varieties being sold as doubles have single, semi and double in the same pack and / or on the same plant. You can stunt a plant with all kinds of stresses, but it does come down to genetics if it has the potential.

LorettaNJ said: You can stunt a plant with all kinds of stresses, but it does come down to genetics if it has the potential.

Does stunting a zinnia include determining if the flower is a single or double? Or is that decided at a different stage within the seed?

I don't think that mean Wisconsin lady understands natural selection. If all of her zinnias now have supernatural powers to withstand disease, pests, and natural disasters how did she achieve this? How it would have to happen is she had three zinnias in her vast field that survived a tornado, so then she kept breeding those three plants until she had enough tornado resistant zinnias to fill the whole field. This process would have to continue with pests and disease that wiped out the whole field, but left a few mutants with resistance. The mere act of planting outside doesn't change the genetics. That's Lamarckian theory which says that a giraffe reaching for leaves makes its offsping have a longer neck. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

I do agree that zinnias should be sown outside for ornamental purposes. The transplants are so much weaker that the direct sown always catch up.

Hi guys,

This stuff about zinnia seeds is interesting. But I think it all is about the dry brown seeds as they come from a seed packet. If you look carefully at a zinnia bloom as it develops, you will notice that the stigmas at the base of the petals sort of die after they get pollinated, turn brown, and shrivel up some. The stigmas may even become detached and fall away, leaving the petal with a green seed at its base, and as the flower head matures, those green seeds become the familiar brown seeds.

In my hobby of breeding zinnias, I pick those plump green seeds to speed things up. However, the green seeds are very slow to germinate if I just plant them, because their green jacket is waterproof. That would be frustrating because I wanted to get the seeds to grow as quickly as I could.

It occurred to me that the problem was that the green seed coat was water-proof, and that made a lot of sense. If it rained on a zinnia flower and the seeds all sprouted immediately, that would be bad.

So, if I wanted the green seeds to grow quickly, I would need to breach the waterproof jacket in some way. I used a hobby knife to slice off some of the seed coating. Occasionally, the inside of the seed would slip out, and I realized that it was the embryo of a baby zinnia sprout. You could see that the embryo was actually a teeny tiny baby seedling, with a tap root end and a pair of embryonic ivory-colored seed leaves.

I was delighted that I could plant just the embryo and get a zinnia sprout very quickly. So, as an experiment, I extracted the embryos from several zinnia petals, planted a whole flat of zinnia embryos, and got a very quick bunch of zinnia seedlings. That green seed technique let me get a new generation of zinnias a whole month sooner than the standard way of letting the seedhead turn brown with dry brown seeds. It is not tornado-proof, but the accelerated schedule lets me grow four generations of zinnias per year.

That graph paper is ruled 10 lines per inch. Click on the photo to see a larger version, which you can close by clicking on the "X" in the lower right-hand corner.

ZM

ZenMan said: Hi guys,

This stuff about zinnia seeds is interesting.


In my hobby of breeding zinnias, I pick those plump green seeds to speed things up.

It is interesting and yes I am talking about the brown seeds.

Do the shapes of those brown seeds somehow indicate or even give a little hint as to whether a seed could be a double or a single? At what point does that seed or nature decide the seed is going to produce a single or a double? Could a growing environment cause it to produce a double or vice versa?

I love to use the green seeds ….lol. I've always wondered where this green seed practice came from. Did you stumble upon this somehow on your own?

Rubi said: I don't think that mean Wisconsin lady understands natural selection.

Lol. She's actually not mean. She just has been inflexible. There is only one way and it's her way.

If I take her at her word though, she really should have her local extension office come out and look at these plants. I want to mention that to her but I don't want it to be viewed as a challenge or sarcasm. Maybe she's really onto something. I don't see the methods working for breeding though but she's been growing for 41 years (her statement) and I know very little so 🤷🏻‍♀️

If you're on FB I can send you the link of a video and photos of her zinnias. They are lovely! I'm going to scatter some seeds like she does for my landscaping but I will give them a little food and water. She says not to pinch. I won't for these.

"There is only one way and it's her way." Sounds like my mom.

ZM, I missed your secret sauce step when it comes to green seeds in your past posts! Explains why I did not have success with my limited attempt with green seeds! I know the milkweed seed growers do the same with fully matured seeds to skip stratification and also get a month's jump on it.

I would love to read the posts if you don't mind posting the link, 2K1B. As for not pinching, so many cut flower growers swear by pinching everything when they are young. Maybe pinch some and not others and compare.

LorettaNJ said: "I would love to read the posts if you don't mind posting the link, 2K1B.

Here is the link to the video in the Zinnia Breeders group:
https://www.facebook.com/group...

Here is a link to the Zinnia Growers group. The featured section at the top of the group page has a post with her growing methods, advice, opinions, etc. Additionally, within the group, there are a lot of posts with her advice. I do want to say again, she isn't 'mean', just inflexible. Her flowers ARE lovely and I am going to do a small patch for landscaping this season usibg her methods for that area. I am pretty convinced though that her methods are not going to be the best for breeding. At least not for me so I'm not going to even try in that part of my growing.

https://www.facebook.com/share...

I am serious about knowledgeable people seeing her flowers. I just don't know how to approach that as I don't want to have it viewed as I'm challenging her. But if the local extension visited, maybe there is something they/we can learn. Or maybe there are things she can learn. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Interestingly, I noticed a post this morning where she listed things people do wrong with zinnias. Number 1 on the list says starting inside is wrong "except if you're breeding …." I am happy to see this as I think it gives me hope that the comnents to her in the Zinnia Breeding group is being considered.

LorettaNJ said:As for not pinching, so many cut flower growers swear by pinching everything when they are young. Maybe pinch some and not others and compare.

I learned which flowers I like to pinch and which ones I don't. As far as zinnias, I pinch early during the spring and summer growing. I don't when I'm growing inside because I won't have room for all those flowers!

Thank you for the links!

LorettaNJ said: Thank you for the links!

Yes, of course. If you're comfortable, I would love to know what you think! Again, I'm very new so learning is my focus.

Hi Loretta,

" ZM, I missed your secret sauce step when it comes to green seeds in your past posts! Explains why I did not have success with my limited attempt with green seeds! "

I covered the zinnia green seed "secret sauce step" with green seeds way back on May 7, 2016, in Post #1140817 , which is here in this very same message string. Click on the blue link to see the Post. I am sorry you missed it. That was more than a few years ago.

ZM

Could be I just didn't remember then which wouldn't be the first time. Thank you for the link.

2K1B, I will for sure.