ZenMan, I came back to visit this thread again. I was looking at Zinnia seeds in catalog and some very high dollar, including Profusion. I notice Profusion series is called "interspecific"; what does that mean? Even though they don't readily cross with others, do they readily cross with themselves?

More specifically, I want to grow Dreamland variety. Seeds are even higher than Profusion and they are noted as being F1. In Zinnias, crossing an F1 with an F1 (same variety), will it likely produce something very similar, do you think?

Since they are dwarf, perhaps I could grow them in 2 or 3 gallon containers. Do you have any suggestions for isolating them, or do they have to be isolated by the individual flower? (I grow a lot of Zinnias for cutting flowers and don't want to cease that.) In reading this thread, I don't see you mention those (isolating flowers), or any photos as to how you actually harvest pollen and pollinate, or did I miss it? How does one know when pollen on a flower is ready?

Are there F1 hybrid Zinnias that will not produce seeds? Do the interspecifics produce seeds?

Thanks for any help.

Hi Kayleigh,

" Are there F1 hybrid Zinnias that will not produce seeds? "

All of the commercially available F1 hybrids can produce seeds. Some research interspecific hybrids are sterile.

" Do the interspecifics produce seeds? "

All the commercially available interspecifics (Profusions, Zaharas, and Pinwheels) do produce seeds. In fact, they are grown open pollinated in fields. They are of hybrid origin, but they are not hybrids.

" I notice Profusion series is called "interspecific"; what does that mean? "

The Profusions, Pinwheels, and Zahara zinnias are members of the man-made zinnia species, Zinnia marylandica. That species was created from an interspecies cross between Zinnia elegans (called Zinnia violacea in academic circles) and Zinnia angustifolia. Z. elegans has 24 chromosomes and Z. angustifolia has 22 chromosomes, so the hybrid has 23 chromosomes. Plants with an odd number of chromosomes are sterile, so the plant scientists used Colchicine to double the 23-chromosome number of the hybrids to 46 chromosomes. The 46-chromosome zinnias were named Zinnia marylandica in honor of the University of Maryland, where much of that research was done. The 46-chromosome Z. marylandicas are true breeding and open pollinated.

" Even though they don't readily cross with others, do they readily cross with themselves? "

Yes, they grow just fine in an open pollinated environment.

" More specifically, I want to grow Dreamland variety. Seeds are even higher than Profusion and they are noted as being F1. "

Unfortunately some seed catalog copy writers do not understand the difference between hybrid origin and actual F1 hybrids and since F1 hybrid seed commands a higher price, it is not at all unusual for open pollinated varieties to be falsely labelled as F1 hybrids. In the case of Dreamland, the "fair" price is about 12 cents per seed. That price might indicate that they are F1 hybrids, but unfortunately they are listed as F1 hybrids in some catalogs and not in others. Incidentally, the Magellans are another competitive variety -- have you considered them? You mention "high dollar". What prices are you seeing?

" In Zinnias, crossing an F1 with an F1 (same variety), will it likely produce something very similar, do you think? "

Selfing or crossing F1s results in genetic recombinations, which may not be similar.

" Since they are dwarf, perhaps I could grow them in 2 or 3 gallon containers. Do you have any suggestions for isolating them, or do they have to be isolated by the individual flower? "

I wouldn't go to that much trouble. I would arrange the containers according to how they looked.

" In reading this thread, I don't see you mention those (isolating flowers), or any photos as to how you actually harvest pollen and pollinate, or did I miss it? "

Isolation is only for commercial seed producers. It has to do with separating different varieties of zinnias by very long distances, perhaps nearly a mile. Bees are long distance fliers, and isolating doesn't work for the home gardener. I don't even attempt it.

I don't remember where or if (in this thread) I went into the specifics of harvesting and using zinnia pollen. Zinnia pollen is very short-lived, and lives for less than a day. I usually use it within a few minutes of the time I "pick" the floret. The fuzzy yellow star-fish-shaped pollen florets emerge in the morning, their timing depending on weather and temperature. As they open, they spill pollen out on the fuzzy yellow arms of the floret. I pick the florets and rub them on the stigmas that I wish to fertilize. Sometimes I use an artists brush to dip in the pollen and transfer it. All that said, cross pollinating zinnias is very easy and it goes rapidly. You can pollinate several blooms in a few minutes, which could create seeds for a garden full of your home hybridized zinnias. I'll toss in some photos here. I do most of my cross-pollinating with tweezers or forceps. Indoors the pollen stays put to make artists brushes feasible.


This is the pollen transfer using an artists brush.


The target for the pollen is the Y-shaped stigmas at the base of each petal. Each stigma fertilizes a single seed attached to the base of the petal. If you have have any questions, please ask. I think we should be able to find some more reasonably priced Dreamland and/or Magellan seeds if you need more than a few seeds. Small packets do charge much higher prices per seed.

ZM

Great information!

Oh, and to me, 20 Dreamland Zinnia seeds for $3.99 is high or expensive. As you breed zinnias, I'd like to try to breed very very similar to the Dreamland zinnias, without them being F1, but instead an open pollinated source.

Hi Kayleigh,

" I'd like to try to breed very very similar to the Dreamland zinnias, without them being F1, but instead an open pollinated source. "

One direct way to do that would be to grow some of your favorite Dreamland zinnias, and then save a lot of seeds from them. The Dreamlands probably are F1 hybrids, so your F2 seedlings will vary quite a lot, but some of them will resemble the parents. If you grow quite a few of them, you might even get some that you like better than the original parents.

By growing a lot of seedlings and culling heavilly to keep only very-good-or-better specimens, you could very well improve the breed, particularly if you repeat that for more than a year. A lot of my breeding has benefited from lucky mutations, but some of my breeding has been just repeated selection for the desired trait. For example, a few years ago I noticed some of my Whirligig zinnias had irregularities on their petal ends that reminded me of "teeth". So I intercrossed those specimens and began selecting only those that showed toothy characteristics. By saving seeds from the "toothiest" specimens each year, I was able to accentuate the characteristic to get a unique look in zinnia blooms.

The toothy look combines well with two-colored petals.

By saving and growing an excessive number of seeds from your Dreamlands, you could be very picky about which ones you keep and which ones you cull and remove. I know in advance that I am going to cull my zinnias heavily, so I plant them closer together to compensate for that. At first bloom I remove a lot of plants that don't further my breeding objectives.

You could do the same thing. And you could actually make improvements to the commercial Dreamlands. For example, both Dreamland and Magellan don't have a really great white, so they refer to what they do have as "Ivory"

http://www.hazzardsgreenhouse....

You could be very picky about which white ones you saved seeds from, using only the very whitest. And if you reallyl wanted to make some quick progress in that direction, you could grow some of Burpee's White Wedding zinnias, and cross them with your Dreamland Ivory specimens.

http://www.burpee.com/flowers/...

You also might find yourself with somewhat different preferences in the plant forms from what Dreamlands have, so you could select for plants that meet your preferences.

Another thing. When you are growing your Dreamlands with the intent of saving seeds from them, you might notice that some specimens aren't putting out much, if any pollen. Don't hesitate to take some pollen from Dreamlands that are producing pollen and apply it to the "shy ones" that aren't. As I like to say, "Be the Bee". You can do a much better job of pollinating your zinnias than the bees do. Bees aren't trying to pollinate, they are just gathering zinnia nectar, and any pollination they do is purely accidental. By doing deliberate pollination, you can increase your seed yield many times over what the bees might give you.

ZM

Thank you very much ZM, for the information and suggestions!!

Hello everyone,
I have decided to give some attention toward improving zinnia plants, as well as their blooms. One thing I have noticed is that from time to time you will see a little zinnia seedling that has emerged with three cotyledons instead of the normal two cotyledons. Occasionally that "plan of three" will continue up the stalk as the zinnia plant grows. I have such a plant growing indoors now.

I refer to such plants as "threesies" and abbreviate that as "3Z". This is a closer view of that 3Z plant.

I plan to save seeds from that plant to see if any of them also produce 3Z plants. In past years I have seen some zinnia plants that had one or more branches that had the 3Z plan, although their main stalk was normal "2Z". The thing is, it should be possible to get a fully 3Z plant, with the plan of three applying everywhere -- the main stalk and all of the side branches. I think that a fully 3Z zinnia plant could have a "good look", so that is a long time goal of mine.

ZM

I do agree the three leaf looks good , it seems to hold/show the flower well

Hello again,
On the subject of improving zinnia foliage, this zinnia showed up in my indoor zinnias.

I have frequently seen some coloration at the base of zinnia leaves, but never to the extent that this specimen has.

This makes me wonder if I save seeds from this specimen, whether some of them might show even more foliage color. I never even wanted to make zinnias look like Coleus, but it seems like a harmless experiment to see where this goes. More later.

ZM

ZenMan said:Hello again,
On the subject of improving zinnia foliage, this zinnia showed up in my indoor zinnias.

I have frequently seen some coloration at the base of zinnia leaves, but never to the extent that this specimen has.

This makes me wonder if I save seeds from this specimen, whether some of them might show even more foliage color. I never even wanted to make zinnias look like Coleus, but it seems like a harmless experiment to see where this goes. More later.

ZM

I like it!

How neat! Reminds me of the coveted "purple based" foliage in some irises.

Too bad I never tried to save seed from the variegated zinnia I had few years ago...

Hi Keith,
I have occasionally seen a zinnia leaf with a little variegation, but nothing as advanced as your specimen. I personally am not a fan of variegation, but I understand that many people are. Actually, I am a little surprised that there isn't a commercial strain of variegated zinnias, because, as your specimen showed, variegation is something that zinnias "can do."

I do save seeds from odd zinnia variations, with the idea that they might create something better when cross-pollinated with a different zinnia. This is a picture of one of my current indoor "Woolly" zinnias.

Its petals are unusual, in that they are tubes, and, unlike many tubular petaled zinnias, the Woolly petal tubes are closed at the ends. In order to cross pollinate this zinnia as a female, I will need to remove enough of the petal tubes to expose the enclosed stigmas that are currently inaccessible inside the petal tubes. Of course, if it produces pollen florets I can use them to cross-pollinate this Woolly with some other zinnia. I like to make hybrids between hybrids, in order to get unusual results.

ZM

ZM I am presuming you grow your zinnias under lights in the house? All the flowers are stunning, I really enjoy seeing what you have come up with

Hi Ronnie,
" I am presuming you grow your zinnias under lights in the house? "

I do. Zinnias are not houseplants, so they require more attention than the average houseplant, but for a zinnia hobbyist like myself, indoor growing lets me get as many as four generations in a year. Two generations indoors and two generations outdoors. Which is a big advantage when you are breeding them and doing home hybridizing experiments. My indoor zinnia project will produce some "interesting" seed to start my outdoor project this Spring. I am much less space limited outdoors, so that is where I do my big growouts. The more zinnias you can grow, the better your chances are of finding something "good".

I get a great deal of pleasure out of growing zinnias indoors, even though they can require a lot of attention. Cross pollinating indoors is especially advantageous, because you can set the pots of the two plants involved side-by-side at some convenient location, have the advantage of good wind-free bright fluorescent lighting, and no worries about bees getting your pollen. Growing zinnias can be a fun hobby.

ZM

Thanks for the welcome! I love that you can grow them inside. Looking forward to further pictures

Hi Ronnie,

This is one of my indoor zinnia blooms that has unusual microdots of color.

You can see them better by clicking on the picture and hitting the F11 key to get the enlarged version of the picture. Its color dots are much smaller than the dots on the Peppermint zinnias. I wonder if the microdots are an inherited trait. I will need to grow progeny from it before I will know if the microdots are genetic.

ZM

Wow the color is spectacular

Hello everyone,
I am starting to pay more attention to the "quality" of my zinnia plants themselves, in addition to their more obvious blooms. This link is to a page in a book that suggests that zinnia leaves that are long and narrow are desirable. I tend to agree with that goal.

https://books.google.com/books...

Incidentally, you might want to explore the book in that link as much as is convenient for you. That book is one of the more authoritative zinnia references. I have owned that book for several years. It is expensive, but I considered it an investment in my hobby. And it covers the breeding of many different flowers.

I do have a few indoor hybrid of hybrids zinnia plants with those long, slender, sharp "spear point" leaves.

Another example:

And yet another.

Long slender leaves are no longer rare in my breeder zinnias. I hope to eventually get improved plants in all of my zinnias. More later.

ZM

Hello everyone,
An update on my indoor zinnia project. This one has an unusual looking bloom.

That picture is not upside down. The zinnia in question had a bent-over stem so that the bloom was hanging down. The female parent of that specimen was a California Giant in my outdoor garden last year. It may or may not have been crossed with something unusual. More later.

ZM