Really nice and the color is wonderful!

ZenMan said:Hello everyone,
An update on my indoor zinnia project. This one has an unusual looking bloom.

That picture is not upside down. The zinnia in question had a bent-over stem so that the bloom was hanging down. The female parent of that specimen was a California Giant in my outdoor garden last year. It may or may not have been crossed with something unusual. More later.

ZM

I had a second bloom on a Benary's Giant , do those Canoe shaped flower petals ,, Only a few though , nothing near the extent or color of the picture .
Nice Bloom there

jimard8 said:I had a second bloom on a Benary's Giant , do those Canoe shaped flower petals ,, Only a few though ...

Hi Jim,
I also grew some Benary's Giants in my outdoors garden last year, with the idea of getting some of those "canoe shaped petals". Some did, but not to the extent that the California Giants did. Benary's Giants are supposed to have 4-foot plants, but only a few of mine did. Maybe I wasn't watering or fertilizing them enough. Although the California Giants got essentially the same cultural treatment, and they were noticeably taller than the Benary's Giants. I am hoping to get some crosses between the "canoe petaled" blooms and some of my unconventional blooms, like this "Razzle Dazzle".

I can't imagine what an intermediate between the canoe shaped petals and the Razzle Dazzle petals would look like. The only way to find out is to make the cross and grow the blooms. I hope to achieve that this Summer.

ZM

Is the down facing flower turning up as it matures?
The head looks so full maybe too heavy for the stem?
Still very interesting to watch all your creations

gardengus said:Is the down facing flower turning up as it matures?
The head looks so full maybe too heavy for the stem?

Hi Cinda,
I think the head may be too heavy for the stem. Here is another current zinnia bloom that also seems too heavy for its stem.

I may try splinting the bent stems, and possibly also staking the plants.

ZM

This year I will try a few Candy Kane I believe , A few from California giants I always grow , or try to ,
The Benary's Giant Got a large Ball Head Bloom at just about four feet , grown in a growers pot , in compost mostly , then ,, It got to heavy and fell over ,
Some of the dwarfs won't stay dwarf and what makes those California Giants so beloved and traditional , is you always get the "Stay upright " from many ,

Zen.. I too love your compositions , The color range of some of your creations , is magnificent

jimard8 said:...A few from California giants I always grow , or try to ,
The Benary's Giant Got a large Ball Head Bloom at just about four feet , grown in a growers pot , in compost mostly , then ,, It got to heavy and fell over...

Hi Jim,
That growers pot with compost may not have been the best place for it. Growing zinnias in the ground is better, if that is something that is available to you. Benary's Giants are a much more recent development than the California Giants, and I am a little mystified why the Benary's Giants aren't better than they appear to be. The cut-flower trade relies on them because, at 4 feet, they should be a foot taller and have a long, strong stem. Benary's is a reputable German seed company, so I suspect the Benary's Giant seed growers must be dropping the ball somehow.

When they first appeared nearly a hundred years ago, the California Giants were a mutant giant plant that got the zinnia breeders of the time very excited. They spent the next decade or two getting a complete color range in that plant form.

jimard8 said:Some of the dwarfs won't stay dwarf...

I don't grow dwarf zinnias any more, because I am a "senior citizen" and I don't like to stoop or kneel to work with them. However, I would think that the dwarf varieties would stay dwarf, unless they didn't have enough light and were stretching and becoming spindly because of that.

This is a "classic" current indoor California Giant bloom, just like the seed packet picture.

Now, I am wondering what to cross it with. I think maybe one of my "Razzle Dazzle" blooms.

I can hardly wait to see what that cross is going to look like.

ZM

California Giants smaller near classic ,, and a larger fuller nearing the Ball Head , Pretty near what I usually get from saved seeds



Zen I remember When you fist started doing the Razzle Dazzle , I have been watching you develop some Zinnia for a long while ,
Love seeing them , I could set I watch film and pictures of them forever ,, delightful

jimard8 said: California Giants smaller near classic ,, and a larger fuller nearing the Ball Head , Pretty near what I usually get from saved seeds ...

Hi Jim,
Hopefully you can improve your zinnias by saving seeds from just your best specimens. I notice in that first picture that you have an expansive lawn in the background. If you wanted to, you could widen the bed you have your zinnias in so you could grow more zinnias. A bigger zinnia population increases your chances of finding that one extra special specimen that you can save seeds from.

That first "find" is key to improving your enjoyment with zinnias. Because those seeds will create a new population that is based on a much better baseline. A "find" in that improved population is likely to make some very significant progress. Repeatedly selecting the best of the best is a powerful tool for improving your zinnias. All of the commercial zinnia varieties have "run out" to varying degrees, and desperately need some re-selection to restore their original glory.

This is one of my tubular petaled zinnias that resembles a California Giant bloom from a distance.

Its petal tube ends superficially resemble the ends of the California Giant petals. Of course, not all tubular petaled zinnias have that California Giant look.

Anyhow, if you were to increase your zinnia population this year, you would increase your chances of finding a suitable breeder specimen to base your next zinnia generation on. There is actually quite a bit of variation in the basic California Giant flower form.

This is another bloom from my last Summer garden.

I had to cross some of those blooms with other blooms, because they didn't produce any pollen.

Whatever you do, keep on the lookout for any interesting zinnias in your flower beds this year.

ZM

That last photo is a beauty
love the lavender /pink

I get everything when I grow them that commonly happens ,, Multicolor flowers on the same stalk , White single blooms , Blooms that are full , If I had a sunny place indoors to have kept a few of some , I would of ,
Pink and Lavender strains (or Genes) seem really popular with most , I like them all , only the Reds are my favorite , Especially in the Cactus forms
Admiring your efforts right along I am ,

I'm growing Zahara zinnias (Marylandica) from seeds I saved last year. Germination is low but by sowing a lot of seeds I have a six pack started. I'm hoping for low growing, well branches plants with lots of flowers. If I don't get exact same color (sunburst) I will be okay with that. I'll update my info to show how it progresses. Any predictions on how this will turn out @Zenman?

SCButtercup said:I'm growing Zahara zinnias (Marylandica) from seeds I saved last year. Germination is low but by sowing a lot of seeds I have a six pack started. I'm hoping for low growing, well branches plants with lots of flowers. If I don't get exact same color (sunburst) I will be okay with that. I'll update my info to show how it progresses. Any predictions on how this will turn out @Zenman?

Hi Judy,
All of the commercial Marylandicas are open pollinated, so you can expect your Zaharas "to come true" from seed. So my prediction is that you will be very pleased with how this turns out. Considering how expensive the Zahara seed is, it just makes good sense to save your own seed.

And, yes, home saved seed usually does have a lower percentage of germination, because the commercial seed producers have the equipment and procedures (lot numbers and germination tests) to achieve a target of 80% germination. Even with my years of experience, I achieve only about 50% on average. And I pick my seeds out from the "seed-head trash" one seed at a time.

ZM

Stumbled onto this thread -- what fun! I love zinnias but have only gotten whatever crosses the bees provided in my mix of saved seeds. I save seeds chaff and all and sow thickly -- works for me, and the chaff helps me see where I've sprinkled.

Have you tried your initial experimental cross again? Those pom-pom centered blooms are really special!

critterologist said:Stumbled onto this thread -- what fun! I love zinnias but have only gotten whatever crosses the bees provided in my mix of saved seeds. I save seeds chaff and all and sow thickly -- works for me, and the chaff helps me see where I've sprinkled.

Hi Jill,
I know of other zinnia growers who grow a lot of zinnias, and who use that very technique, even for zinnias that they are breeding. It is very appropriate for growing large numbers of zinnias, with no waste of effort. I am more "clinical" in my approach to zinnias, and I save zinnia seeds individually, and I plant them individually in straight rows, with labels on each row.

critterologist said:Have you tried your initial experimental cross again? Those pom-pom centered blooms are really special!

I have, and I have gotten some interesting results, although none identical to my original crosses. This one has some lavender barely showing at base of its big guard petals.

This one got bicolored petals from some Whirlygig "blood".

This one probably did not get any Whirlygig genes.

But this one did.

I really like some of the effects you can get crossing scabious type zinnias with other zinnias. Like all the zinnias above, this one has a prominent contrasting center. But not all zinnias have that.

Some of the crosses remind me a bit of echinaceas

And it is even possible to get a zinnia that looks like a waterlily.

I think there is a lot of untapped potential in various recombinations involving scabious genes. There are some new commercial varieties of scabious zinnias, and I will be growing some of them this Summer. It's always good to involve "some new blood".

ZM

How many Zinnias do you actually grow a year, does it take up a lot of space? and do you have a greenhouse?

keithp2012 said:How many Zinnias do you actually grow a year, does it take up a lot of space? and do you have a greenhouse?

Hi Keith,
I do not have a greenhouse. We rent a farmhouse and grounds and there isn't a "good" place for a greenhouse here. In lieu of a greenhouse, I do grow some zinnias indoors under T8 fluorescent lights in the basement utility room during the Winter.

I grow approximately 2000 zinnias outdoors and 100 or so indoors. When it comes to breeding zinnias, the more, the better. But those figures represent the approximate maximum populations that are practical for me. All zinnias are highly variable, so I cull them severely. Sturgeon's Law applies to a lot of things, including zinnias, and I keep it in mind when culling my zinnias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

My primary culling occurs at first bloom. Heavy culling lets me plant a lot more than 2000 zinnia seeds. Knowing that I am going to cull a lot of zinnias, I plant my zinnias closer together than would normally be good cultural practice, but removing the rejects thins the planting. I pull up the culls and discard them in the trash (I don't put them on a compost pile to avoid spreading disease.) If a reject is too close to a "good" zinnia, I snip the cull off at the ground surface with a hand pruner.

I look my zinnias over carefully and pick the very best ones (in my opinion) as "breeders" and I assign a unique alphanumeric code to each breeder, and I attach a label to the plant. I hand pollinate or cross pollinate my breeders. I do not depend on bees for pollination. I take my own advice, "to be the bee."

Growing and "improving" zinnias is a fun hobby for me. Some of my "improvements" might be a bit questionable, but they are unique enough to be of interest to me, if only as curiosities. This "onion flowered" zinnia is an example of that.

By making hybrids between hybrids, a lot of things are possible in zinnias.

ZM

ZenMan said:Hi Keith,
I do not have a greenhouse. We rent a farmhouse and grounds and there isn't a "good" place for a greenhouse here. In lieu of a greenhouse, I do grow some zinnias indoors under T8 fluorescent lights in the basement utility room during the Winter.

I grow approximately 2000 zinnias outdoors and 100 or so indoors. When it comes to breeding zinnias, the more, the better. But those figures represent the approximate maximum populations that are practical for me. All zinnias are highly variable, so I cull them severely. Sturgeon's Law applies to a lot of things, including zinnias, and I keep it in mind when culling my zinnias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

My primary culling occurs at first bloom. Heavy culling lets me plant a lot more than 2000 zinnia seeds. Knowing that I am going to cull a lot of zinnias, I plant my zinnias closer together than would normally be good cultural practice, but removing the rejects thins the planting. I pull up the culls and discard them in the trash (I don't put them on a compost pile to avoid spreading disease.) If a reject is too close to a "good" zinnia, I snip the cull off at the ground surface with a hand pruner.

I look my zinnias over carefully and pick the very best ones (in my opinion) as "breeders" and I assign a unique alphanumeric code to each breeder, and I attach a label to the plant. I hand pollinate or cross pollinate my breeders. I do not depend on bees for pollination. I take my own advice, "to be the bee."

Growing and "improving" zinnias is a fun hobby for me. Some of my "improvements" might be a bit questionable, but they are unique enough to be of interest to me, if only as curiosities. This "onion flowered" zinnia is an example of that.

By making hybrids between hybrids, a lot of things are possible in zinnias.

ZM

If they are outside how do prevent natural cross pollination and pollinate each individual flower like your onion zinnia?

keithp2012 said:If they are outside how do prevent natural cross pollination and pollinate each individual flower like your onion zinnia?

Hi Keith,
I do my pollination in the morning as the pollen florets open and I use tweezers or forceps to pick the pollen florets and use them as "brushes" to apply the pollen to the stigmas. So there is nothing left for the bees on my breeders. Bees are only interested in pollen florets, and are not the least bit interested in a zinnia bloom that doesn't have any pollen florets remaining.

Bees weren't an issue on that onion zinnia because it grew indoors. Some onion flowered zinnias consist of floret-petals that contain their own functional pollen and stigmas, so they normally self themselves just like the conventional pollen florets produce a selfed floret seed, with no need for intervention.

Bees aren't the least bit interested in doing any pollination. They are gathering nectar for use as food. Any pollination they do is purely accidental. The crosses I make are targeted, and I would notice any "natural" pollination when the hybrids bloomed out. I very rarely see a hybrid zinnia that suggested natural pollination. If a bee accidentally made the same cross I was doing, then I wouldn't see that. I have done a lot of pollination and cross pollination of zinnias over the years, and I have never felt it necessary to bag my female zinnias to prevent bee pollination. I have on occasion used "hair nets" to prevent seed eating birds from accessing a seedhead. But the bees and I get along just fine together in the zinnia patch.

This is another example of a near spherical zinnia bloom.

A sphere is not a particularly interesting flower shape, but it is not a usual zinnia bloom.

ZM

Amazing -- both the patience (and steady hands) required to pluck all those pollen-laden florets and the resulting blooms! I admire your organized approach, too. For sure, you are taking these flowers where no zinnia has ever gone before!