I'm in the minority but I don't like the idea of spectator mode unless it is limited in some way. Personally, I don't get it. A tutorial to help new folks is fine but do they need to watch the entire swap? Why? They can look at people's seed lists already. What else do they need to see?

As for second helpings, I'm fine with it as long as we can remove some items before it starts.

Personally, I obtain seeds from swaps to try that particular plant in my area to see if it's a keeper. Very rarely, the person giving the seed I want, gives too little amount. I don't think I would ever ask for a double batch. If you want more of that seed, then collect it for the next year so you have it. I just don't see why anyone would want a extra pack. Just my opinion.

I agree with you bxncbx about the spectator mode. I just do not feel comfortable with the idea, but other than being a private person by nature (to a degree with being on the internet), I am not sure I have a good solid reason.

I was talking to my husband about the "second helping" idea and he wonders if it could be enabled later in a swap to give others a chance at the seed. Another thought: could a seed be marked ahead of time "Not available for second helpings" or something like that? I hope I am not repeating something said earlier.

Chillybean said:I agree with you bxncbx about the spectator mode. I just do not feel comfortable with the idea, but other than being a private person by nature (to a degree with being on the internet), I am not sure I have a good solid reason.

I was talking to my husband about the "second helping" idea and he wonders if it could be enabled later in a swap to give others a chance at the seed. Another thought: could a seed be marked ahead of time "Not available for second helpings" or something like that? I hope I am not repeating something said earlier. :)

I can relate on the privacy thing. The idea of that feature has me torn, too. I try to remind myself that it isn't much different than talking about seeds and 'buying' stuff in the forum threads.

I was thinking a half-way point is a good point to try 'second helpings', seeing as all of us have unused tickets at our half-way point. No doubt different swaps would have different times where that occurs, but that could be part of the organizer's job to recognize (if they are hosting a swap that does 'seconds').

I am torn on the second helpings too. Of course if it's something I have plenty of, sure, but I only have a pack or two I would probably say no. Especially if I am going to do other swaps.

I think the second helpings is a fine idea, BUT as mentioned already, it would be fairly complicated. For the time being, if you want extras, your best bet is a quick tree mail to the seller asking for extra seeds of that item.

I don't understand what threat you people are seeing in allowing someone to watch a swap. Everything on this site except tree mail is public. What do you think someone is going to see that is going to be harmful to you?

duane456 said:Personally, I obtain seeds from swaps to try that particular plant in my area to see if it's a keeper. Very rarely, the person giving the seed I want, gives too little amount. I don't think I would ever ask for a double batch. If you want more of that seed, then collect it for the next year so you have it. I just don't see why anyone would want a extra pack. Just my opinion.

I think that Seed Savers Institute has that kind of philosophy. It was decades ago that I looked into it, so I may have forgotten or imagined this,but I thought they had a rule LIMITING the size of a trade packet to be some number as small as 30 (if I recall). Barely enough to maintain genetic diversity for some species!

Then you really HAVE TO multiply the seed if you want more than a small sample of it. That might be a goal of SSE.

But for saved seeds I have in abundance? No problem, except for keeping a record of "Joe asked for more XYZ". I know that I like to be able to buy one packet of commercial seeds, and get a few sowings from it this year, plus some left over for next year. That gives me 3-4 chances to get a good crop and decide whether I like it. A seed trader might appreciate the same luxury, when plenty of seed is available.

I guess a host could push a themed swap in either direction by setting upper or lower bounds on packet size. One host might agree with Duane, and consider the swap a way to SAMPLE many varieties. Another host might want to run a swap that lets seed-saving participants provide each other with enough seed for a 30' row, direct-sown and then brutally thinned.

One problem with that is that some plants like tomatoes are typically started in flats and then planted out spaced widely. Five tomato plants cover a very large area compared to 5 pea vines or bushes. So 10 tomato seeds might be a medium-size-pkt, but 30 peas might be a small pkt.

But ten carrot seeds aren't enough to be worth labeling! Any "size" rules would have to cover a wide range, from dust-like seeds to peas and beans.

I must say I am a bit surprised that anyone would object to having the members of ATP watch the swap in action.
How are we to learn how the swap works in action? So far all I see is rules, suggestions, and a list of seeds and dibs. Not much to go by.

I had held myself in 'wait and see' mode mostly because I knew I would not have any free time to participate, but also so I could have a chance to see how the people interacted with each other during this beta swap. Do they play well with others? How fast do the seeds disappear? Hoping to see some friendly and informative chit chat about how good that tomato tasted or how colorful those flowers are.

This beta may be a good way to test the system to make sure it all works properly, but it was my hope that it would also be a way to build interest and excitement for all the members of ATP and make them want to participate in future swaps or even to host their own specialized swaps.

Edited to add:
Well, I finally found some chit chat...it was on a thread which asked what seeds everyone was looking for...a place for wish-list items. Never would have thought to look there.

Regarding the second helping issue. I think it should be relegated to the last day of the swap and/or seeds people have lots of.

For example, I have so many mixed yellow marigolds, purple morning glories, etc that I could give anyone as much as they want - within reason, of course! I am already giving lots of these in the regular pack anyway.

On "special" seeds that I have a very limited quantity, such as the tropicana canna, I offered less seeds per pack. I think it would be unfair for one person to request multiple packs of such items. Many are from newly released plants that few people are offering seeds for trade. Hopefully, the following year, more people will be growing the "new" or "unusual" cultivars and more will be available.

As for people "watching" the swap, I bet some of the people watching the swap are wishing they joined! IMO, one should be aware that anything typed in an internet forum could be "watched." That is why it is so hard to find cannabis seeds ... kidding....only kidding....I may already be on a DEA watch list for buying so many zippie bags at Walmart!

Usually betas on ATP are done on closed forums where only the participants are allowed to even see the forum. I let this forum be visible to the public but I never intended for the public to actually enter the beta swap and see the system and use it. The signup for the beta was open to all and everyone had a chance to join in. Nobody was left out and everyone who wanted in got in.

greene said:This beta may be a good way to test the system to make sure it all works properly, but it was my hope that it would also be a way to build interest and excitement for all the members of ATP and make them want to participate in future swaps or even to host their own specialized swaps.

That was never my intention with the beta group.

My intention was to have a group help me design and implement the swap system and this group did it better than any beta group has ever done it before.

Building interest and excitement in the ATP membership at large will remain a task for the future, once the beta is done and the dust has settled from this first swap.

Now let's keep things upbeat and positive, shall we?

to all here. Great group of people.

RickCorey said:

I think that Seed Savers Institute has that kind of philosophy. It was decades ago that I looked into it, so I may have forgotten or imagined this,but I thought they had a rule LIMITING the size of a trade packet to be some number as small as 30 (if I recall). Barely enough to maintain genetic diversity for some species!

Then you really HAVE TO multiply the seed if you want more than a small sample of it. That might be a goal of SSE.

Actually, SSE sets MINIMUM numbers of seeds to be offered, unless you specify "limited quantity available" for whatever reason... for instance, a minimum of 25 bean seeds, 100 corn seeds, etc. They also don't allow listing of seeds that you haven't grown out and collected yourself (you can't offer leftover or extra commercial seeds, for example, and you can't re-offer extra seeds that you obtained from a swap).

I definitely agree that for things like carrots, beets, lettuce, spinach, whatever -- you need a fair amount of seed to plant; whereas for tomatoes, peppers, squash, cucumbers, a pretty small number will give you a good chance to try the variety to see if you like it.

Also, with regard to the idea of a "spectator mode," I'd really like to hear more specifics about why some people find that objectionable; I totally agree with Jay that it seems completely harmless to me, and I think it could help to give some members the "courage" to join in on a swap for the first time. And truthfully, I doubt that all that many people will find it that fascinating to watch the progress of a swap they aren't involved in!

Weedwhacker said:


Also, with regard to the idea of a "spectator mode," I'd really like to hear more specifics about why some people find that objectionable; I totally agree with Jay that it seems completely harmless to me, and I think it could help to give some members the "courage" to join in on a swap for the first time. And truthfully, I doubt that all that many people will find it that fascinating to watch the progress of a swap they aren't involved in!

I have been a spectator and I also watched the piggy swap for the first time last year. I find it all very fascinating but I'm also amazed at all the cool stuff I learn as far as gardening (learning about plants I didn't even know about), seed starting, zone pushing, etc. There is a wealth of information that goes back and forth between the traders.

Weedwhacker said:
Actually, SSE sets MINIMUM numbers of seeds to be offered, unless you specify "limited quantity available" for whatever reason... for instance, a minimum of 25 bean seeds, 100 corn seeds, etc.

Thank you for that correction! I must have misunderstood, 20-30 years ago, and been grumbling to myself about it ever since.

I wonder how I got the opposite impression? Oh, well, the Universe makes a little more sense today than it did yesterday. I can't say that very often. Usually, every year the Universe baffles and amazes me a little more than the year before.

and then there's Rick's sense of humor which always keeps me laughing and smiling

vic said:I have been a spectator and I also watched the piggy swap for the first time last year. I find it all very fascinating but I'm also amazed at all the cool stuff I learn as far as gardening (learning about plants I didn't even know about), seed starting, zone pushing, etc. There is a wealth of information that goes back and forth between the traders.

Exactly, Vickie! I really think a lot of members would feel the same way if they had the opportunity to "watch" a swap in progress.

Rick, SSE may have been different 20-30 years back ( I was a member back then, but don't actually remember the specifics...) I've kind of joined off and on at random times, and my "Blue Peter" beans came from an early membership. There was a bit of an upheaval in the SSE at some point, and perhaps the whole system changed at that time.