Ok. Thanks so much. 1) is what I was asking....but would have been reposting, asking for 2). I'm thankful for this source of knowledge. I'm being pulled forward by this group, gaining information and experiences that I otherwise would not haveIhad.

Tip: It's always better to have too little moisture in the bag than too much. In fact, scales will form bulblets in a bag of peat moss without any extra moisture added. Small ones, but bulblets nonetheless. We only add a little bit of moisture to extend the life of the mother scale a little longer and larger baby bulblets are the result of that. What I do is make up a larger batch of media in large bowl and then mist the surface and roll that in, repeating a couple times. The mix should feel slightly cool to your hand, but not stick. Then I bag it up in 1 gallon size freezer bags, seal them and let them lay on the countertop a couple days. If there's any condensation at all, I prop the bags vertical and keep them open another couple days. Once you get too much moisture in a bag of media, it's not so easy to get out. And, even more difficult, when you've got a bag loaded with scales. So go sparingly with the mist when you first add it.

The Fall season is my favorite time of year to scale. It works out perfectly to the four season cycle with lilies and it's a great way to create extra safety backups in case something happens to your original. Keep in mind, though, that not all cultivars develop scale bulblets at the same rate, both from a time period standpoint and a bulblet quantity standpoint. We'll be talking more about that during the off season for sure .

Anyone ever scale martagons? The scales are not as large and thick as most other lilies. Wondering if it's worth it.

I've done it with a Mrs. R.O. Backhouse martagon section bulb I had bought in October. Just as easy as any, in my opinion, but yes, size is a factor.

In fact I just obtained this morning from our North Star Lily Society sale (and plan to do some scaling myself):
Brocade and one of many martagons donated by Ieuan Evans

Mary--generally, a scale put into incubation will form bulblets that vary in size from a BB to a pea in 8 to 10 weeks. So if you did some today, you would have bulblets around Christmas time. If you are scaling an Asiatic, the bulblets will need to go through a chill cycle of about 12 weeks (just like the mother bulb outside). If you are scaling a Trumpet or Trumpet type like an OT, they do not need a chill cycle and can be potted up and grown under lights without the chill cycle--although a chill cycle is still highly recommended. In either case, both can be potted up by late March and started inside and moved outside when the weather warms. By next Fall or a year from now, the bulblets should grow to nearly the size of a golf ball. Most bulbs this size will produce flowers the following year. I should note that not all Divisions and/or cultivars of lilies produce scale bulblets at the same rate, some are faster, some are slower. The same goes for size, some produce larger bulblets than others and some grow larger, faster as well. So the golf ball size is just a ball park value, but still used by many.

I have two bulbs of Tiramasu, mostly an OT hybrid. I know nothing other than what I have read but the lack of source for this bulb made me wonder about scaling. I don't know if it has formed bubils on its own. They have been in the ground for, um, two summers, two winters, headed into the third winter. If I only had one I wouldn't touch it. It is a gorgeous lily. I don't know why Judith hasn't been selling it. I got it by happenstance. It was there on her site, then gone. And my only goal was to have perhaps a few grow to share with a couple of DG friends. I focus on growing lilies, peonies, dahlias. All the rest is pretty much filler in the garden. The dahlias take the most work. Peonies are all reward, little to no work.

I have varied results with lilies. Due to where I plant them? Maybe. Some grow the first year (Like Gizmo) into monsters with huge flowers. Others like Sopporo, Silk Road, not so good. I have a short growing season and a fair amount of cloudy days and rainy ones. It really hurts the white lilies. Anyway, that is where I am at. I thank you for your advice. I have read a lot of the postings here and feel prepared to make an attempt with realistic expectations.

Mary Stella

I started setting out scale clones today. Disregard the roots in the pictures. They were so root bound, it was the best I could do. But I want you to take a good look at the features of the bulbs. See what I see? As far as I know, the mother bulb is 2n. But I'll be darned if all seven of these babies aren't 4n. See if you agree. The scales had a light dusting of new formula Captan + media had a small amount of Captan added + heat @ about 100'F for a few hours. The new formula Captan is N-trichloromethylthio-4-cyclohexene-1,2-dicarboximide, 48.90%, 51 % inert. There was no ID tag or bag mix-up!

Lorn, I don't want to sound snobby but what would make you think they look 4n? They certainly look healthy. Is that a trumpet, Aurelian, or OT bulb?

It wouldn't make any difference what they are, Joe.

Not that I am well versed in the subject, but the only thing I "see" is that the bulb scales seem a bit large (individually). I think that is a quarter?
Perhaps the leaves are more substantive?

I'm told that scales splaying apart is also a possible indication. No hint of that, though.

I think Lorn is just good at what he does. I wish my scale bulblets and seedlings would buff up quick like that. No lily thumb here!

No argument there!

Rick, you were really close when you said the scales on the newly born 4n bulblets splay apart at about 60' angles and I know you looked for it too. Keep in mind these bulblets are 10 months old so they're growing out of that stage somewhat. But if you look close, you can still see the presence of what, once was, that classic 'V' form. Because of this, young 4n bulblets appear oval when viewed from above whereas 2n bulblets are quite round (and I should have taken a picture of that). Another sign of 4n is fast growing long, strapping leaves, nearly twice the size of 2n at any given time during the first year. I guess my question was kind of unfair because none of you got to see these when they were tiny white bulblets with the 'V' form, nor had a chance to watch them grow along side others everyday throughout the summer as I did. So I wasn't all that surprised. But still, I was glad to see what I suspected all along. I still need a couple more years of evaluation and comparison to the mother before I can be 100% sure these are 4n, however.

If, in fact, these turn out to be 4n, it remains a mystery of how it happened. The addition of new formula Captan to my media is not new here. I use it because I believe it hastens not only bulblet development but also the quantity of them. But what was different was the malfunction of the incubation thermostat that caused the temperature of many samples to reach temperatures as high as 145'F until I discovered it. Most samples were lost. Only those on the outside parameter could be salvaged where sample bags got very warm but not hot--probably 105'--110'F. This bag along with 4 others were the only ones I could save. So, who knows; Maybe the Captan + Heat did it.

How do you plan on finding out if they are 4n or not? Microscope work?

In these photos taken Sept 9th, If I were to guess the ploidity in the first picture, I would say the one on the right is most likely a 4n. I'll be setting these out in the next day or two. I don't know the ploidity. One is from Jojan Mak, the other from B&D. We'll have to see what these bulbs look like and I'll ask for ploidity. The second photo shows the typical oblong growth pattern at the base with the cloned bulblets discussed above. It was the only bulblet I could save from that sample bag exposed to heat.. Ignore any spots on foliage caused by sun shining through droplets of copper base fungicide. Just study the base.

Joe, I might do a stomate size and count comparison to the mother plant. But there will be other physical clues along the way as well, which should be quite obvious when comparing to the mother.

Yes, I do see how the bulb scales are still diverging more than typical. At first not all that telling, as I do (uncommonly) see this in bulblets this size, but coupled with the uniformity between all the bulbs, probably significant.

Confusion here:

Roosterlorn said: ...that classic 'V' form. Because of this, young 4n bulblets appear oval when viewed from above whereas 2n bulblets are quite round

Roosterlorn said: ...The second photo shows the typical oblong growth pattern at the base with the cloned bulblets discussed above.

So what "oval" are we talking about here: that of the bulb (as seen from above) or the growth pattern of how the leaves emerge, or both?
This is all very interesting.

Very intrigued - I hadn't come across this before. I had no idea from those pictures what clues you were looking for! Great info, thanks for sharing.

Lorn, I have some Greisbach 4n OT seedlings that I think display this oval shape. I will take a few pics when I replant them.

Leftwood said:



So what "oval" are we talking about here: that of the bulb (as seen from above) or the growth pattern of how the leaves emerge, or both?
This is all very interesting.

Rick, it's both. The pattern that the leaves emerge in is like a reflection of bulblet shape below. Viewers are at a disadvantage here because photos are 2 dimensional and don't give a true picture of the oval form. I, of course, see them in 3 D in real life everyday, so when I look at the picture, my mind interprets it as oval, regardless.