Actually, I wonder if it would be too acid for some lilies.....

I've got a roll of hydrion pH test paper with a range of 4 to 9. It should be easy enough to check. I'll bet it will even show the pH of the damp atmosphere inside the bag without even touching the damp moss. Interesting thought! Let's find out!

Does live sphagnum harbor any pathogens that could prove harmful? I've read that it does but my understanding has been that dead sphagnum is a good "clean" medium. Is dead sphagnum typically treated in some way?

Pic of old school method of scaling. If I have space on the shelves with the grow lights I will scale trumpet and OT bulbs and grow them on this way.

They do well on straight coarse perlite or a 50/50 mix of perlite and potting mix. They directly leaf out without a cold cycle.



Hank Z

I don't doubt what you're saying Evan, but I kind of doubt what you read. The green raw sphagnum's high acidity levels would seem to make it an undesirable host environment and quite immune to biological attack. I'm not 100% sure about that, though.

As far as I know, the dried and processed raw sphagnum is not treated with chemicals of any kind. We have a major producer, processor called Mosser Lee here in Wisconsin. The plant and drying operation is easily viewed from any of several roads close by. The drying operation technique appears quite ancient from what you would expect to see in this day and age. It is done exactly the same way as coir (coconut fiber) is dried and processed in India today. If you use your imagination, you get the picture. The gathered moss is spread out over large, very clean sandy fields in open air to sun dry. It gets washed by the rain and dried by the sun several times with repeated tufting and turning in between. After several cycles of this, the dried clean moss is brought inside and cut or milled (Damp-Off) and packaged as you see in stores and garden centers. As far as being clean, it does have a few occasional grass seeds occluded and it always contains a few small dried sticks and stems which can be a source of irritation when preparing media for seeding; but a 'small price to pay' for all the goodness it does.

Hank, you make a good point here that I don't think many people are aware of. YES, YOU CAN grow trumpet and Aurelians scale bulblets straight through without a chill cycle. One only needs to refrigerate them until it is convenient to plant them. I've done this many times. The only risk I've seen is that some may want to go dormant too early in the Fall so you have to keep a close eye on pot moisture. I have just this last winter tried this on OT ( Connie, Gabriel's Wings) as back up and they look good.

Nice picture of 'old school' cloning, Hank. Everyone will enjoy seeing those!

Lorn, I have had very good luck with the old school cloning method.

But perhaps we can clone without using scales or TC. Pic attached is of a first attempt at using plant growth hormones to induce bulbil growth on lily stems that normally do not produce bulbils. This is just an early stage of a new experiment on my part. I am still a bit off in the hormone balance and setting up a reliable procedure.

Wow Hank! Very interesting. Those look like very healthy bulbils too, and big! Is this a Hank Z original experiment or a widespread experiment? If I may ask, what lilies are you using this on? OT's?

Hank, did you do this soon after the buds had formed but before blooming?

Thanks for the description of the sphagnum drying process Lorn. You paint a good picture. It must be convenient having a ready source of peat sphagnum so close to home. More internet myth regarding pathogens no doubt.

Evan--I think you meant raw sphagnum moss instead of peat in your above post. The story or relationship of cranberries and green raw sphagnum moss is an interesting one. Cranberries grow naturally in floating swampy bogs in an unglaciated area of central Wisconsin; an area once considered worthless by early day diary farmers of the region. Today, cranberries grow in large fields of 120 acres or more, in what is essentially a great big, man made 120 acre floating moss bog, held captive by dikes that also allow for raising or lowering the water level of the bog field. Moss is renewable, but as moss ages, older bogs are replenished with new fresh moss so there is plenty of extra moss around. Mosser Lee, the company that processes the dry raw sphagnum moss we see in garden centers is located smack-dab in the center of all this cranberry ativity. In all likelihood, that packaged moss was used to raise the cranberries you had as a 'side' dish with thanksgiving dinner.

Joe, This is an semi-original experiment. My thought is that the daylily, hosta and orchid growers have been using PGRs for a while to get increases and proliferations, so it should work for lilies. This is on an asiatic, but I'm certain it will work on OTs.

Lorn, You are correct in that I waited until I had very early bud set before I applied PGRs. This is on the only lily I currently have available to experiment with. It is an asiatic that was held over in the basement from last years seedlings as it had not shown enough growth to put out for the winter. It is in a 3.25" pot and is now a few feet tall, although laying sideways on the shelves as my shelves are spaced only about a foot apart, and needless to say, that large a plant would just fall over in that small a pot. It now has 8 nice buds (four pairs of buds spacing out on the stem). Note that there is no root growth on these bulbils. This is what I have to figure out. In aTC lab plant cells are originally started in a multiplication media, and eventually transferred over to growth media, so it may require a separate application of a different mix of PGRs applied at a certain time.

I had made a PGR application to another plant where some of the growths look more like undifferentiated callus tissue that forms in early stage tissue culture. Picture is attached. As I said, this is a new experiment and needs more work.

Nice work, Hank.

I've noticed in the garden that a lily stem of a variety that doesn't normally produce aerial bulbils, will do so when it is traumatised in some way, such as losing buds to a late frost or being almost completely snapped at the base but still hanging on by a ribbon. I don't know enough about plant hormones to know what balance of chemicals are released in response to trauma, but it's certainly interesing.

Oh - I've also had success with the 'old' half-planted scales method, when I had access to a green house to keep the atmosphere relatively warm and humid. Half peat, half sharp sand. If just a few scales are placed in a pot it saves one potting up and root disturbance event, but then you also have to have cold space for pots or time vernalisation for the natural winter. (Haven't really done much with those types you mention need no cold spell, Lorn.) Also have used foam boxes as flats for larger quantities.

Della, I have seen what you are talking about, too, where if a plant is traumatized, it forms bulbils just below the point of injury. I happen to see it on a few of those I disbud. Hank indicates he started his experiment soon after all the buds had formed. So, that coincides. I now can add another observation that may to be somewhat relevant to the irrelevant. The cultivars that produce an abundance of underground bulblets also have the greatest tendency to form bulbils at the leaf axil close to where the injury has occurred. But since those cultivars produce an abundance of stem bulblets for reproduction purposes normally, they are of no value to Hank's experiment other than to verify the likelihood that stem bulbils do occur close and directly below the injury or disbudding. It also seems to support, to a considerable extent, that the optimum time to apply the experiment is as soon as all the buds have formed into a bud head and that the most appropriate test subjects are those that reproduce slowly by natural means.

Update on scaled Anaconda and Moonlight bulbs.

Last Fall recap, pics. 1,2,3 dated Oct. 12th, 2013. All scaled bulbs, the control bulbs and 'cut early' test bulbs were planted on Oct. 12, 2013.

Moonlight


Anaconda


Typical scaled bulb, calloused and dusted with Captan


Update may, 27th, 2014

Typical growth as of May 27th, 2014. All test bulbs are growing. The scaled bulbs emerged about 3 weeks later than the control bulbs, even though they were planted 2 inches shallower. The average height of those scaled is about 3 inches. They appear very healthy, but smaller. The average height of the control bulbs is about 12 inches. The also appear healthy. I am running three different tests on three different sets on 6 Moonlight and 5 Anaconda bulbs and have taken many pictures. To make things simpler and less confusing I'll only show two representative pictures. This should give you an idea of what to expect if you ever do a full scale job.

Scaled


Control

One of the Anaconda scaled test bulbs had an offset to work around.

On the left. Unscaled control bulb in the center


Close up


As of May 27th, 2014

I have been reading through this thread and wanting to try scaling. I didn't want to risk the more expensive bulbs since you get so few (at least not until I think I know what I am doing). I am wondering if these look okay to use. They were 10 in a package at the big box hardware. That way I have a few tries, lol.

That should work Cat but the bigger the scales the better. I do use it on my more expensive ones because with 1-3 scales you will get plenty of bulblets. Each variety will yield more or less but you should get at least 2 bulblets per scale and snapping off one or two on a healthy bulb won't damage it too much. I like to use it on more expensive or rare varieties as back ups or just too make more. I personally have not paid more that $20 for a bulb yet but if I did I surely would snap off a scale or two!

Okay, Thanks! I guess I cold try it on a couple off of a nicer bulb. I just was a little leery on my first try. Thanks for the reply!

Oh, go ahead--give it a try. You've got 10 bulbs; now is a perfect time to practice a little to build your confidence. This way, when you really do have an important one to scale, it will be a lot more fun. These bulbs look OK, even with the little brown bruise spots. I'd make up a couple different batches: scales with spots, scales without spots (probably 6 of each). Make sure you treat all scales in very dilute household bleach for a few minutes and rinse thoroughly. Ask questions along the way. Oh--with summer approaching and temperatures rising, keep an eye on the temperature of your incubating samples. Keep it below 72'F if you can. And remember, when it comes to incubation, a somewhat drier media is better than a somewhat wetter media. Sound like fun?