Plant Database forum: Unmuddling the Irises issue

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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Jan 20, 2012 10:15 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

A couple weeks ago we had this discussion:

The thread "Siberian Iris search" in Plant Database forum

I haven't made any moves on it because I want to be absolutely clear on what we agreed upon before I make any sweeping changes.

So, please review the following proposal, and if you agree, let me know.

The proposal is this:

1) Update all plants to remove the species field if the genus is Iris and the species is sibirica.

2) Update all plants to add the common name "Siberian Iris" if the classification is Siberian.

3) Update all plants to add the species name "ensata" if the classification is Japanese.

Are these all correct?
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
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PollyK
Jan 20, 2012 10:23 AM CST
I feel it is, as we discussed before we should not be having a species name in anything with mixed species parentage.

Siberian irises are a mixture of Iris sibirica and iris sanguinea.

Japanese irises only have one species in their background, Iris ensata.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Jan 20, 2012 10:24 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

So that's a yes to all three proposals mentioned above then?
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
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PollyK
Jan 20, 2012 10:25 AM CST
I say yes.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Region: California Plant Database Moderator Roses Irises Clematis Garden Photography
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Calif_Sue
Jan 20, 2012 11:57 AM CST

Plants Admin

Hurray!
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Jan 20, 2012 12:16 PM CST

Plants Admin

How about adding the following: Polly please correct.

Japanese Iris Common Names (CN) in order:
Iris
Japanese Water Iris
Japanese Flag
Russian Iris

Dave: Can you also add Classification?
ex.
CN Siberian Iris. Add Classification: Siberian
Species sibirica. Add Classification: Siberian

CN Japanese Iris or Japanese Water Iris. Add Classification: Japanese (Ensata)
Species ensata. Add Classification: Japanese (Ensata)
Evan
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Region: California Plant Database Moderator Roses Irises Clematis Garden Photography
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Calif_Sue
Jan 20, 2012 12:37 PM CST

Plants Admin

Those classifications are already in place as a check option.
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Jan 20, 2012 12:52 PM CST

Plants Admin

Hi Sue. It's very time consuming adding them individually and the advanced search is less helpful without classification filled in.
Evan
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Jan 20, 2012 1:06 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Evan is asking if this can be scripted to add the checkbox if the common name exists, right?
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Region: California Plant Database Moderator Roses Irises Clematis Garden Photography
Cottage Gardener Keeper of Poultry Hummingbirder Bee Lover Butterflies Birds
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Calif_Sue
Jan 20, 2012 1:15 PM CST

Plants Admin

Ahhh *Blush*
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Hand sewn wares and vintage finds in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Jan 20, 2012 1:24 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Okay, the new proposal based on Evan's addition:

1) Check off "Classification: Siberian" if the common name is "Siberian Iris" OR if the latin name is Iris sibirica.

Also:

2) Check off "Classification: Japanese" if the species is ensata OR the common name is Japanese Iris.

Then:

3) Update all plants to remove the species field if the genus is Iris and the species is sibirica.

4) Update all plants to add the common name "Siberian Iris" if the classification is Siberian.

5) Update all plants to add the species name "ensata" if the classification is Japanese.

I'm not going to execute on any of this until we have the full set of what we want done established. Then I'll do them one after the other all at once.
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
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PollyK
Jan 20, 2012 7:06 PM CST
According to McEwens book on Japanese iris, the correct botanical name is Iris ensata, and the common name Japanese Iris. I haven't heard the other common names that Evan is listing. But I don't often know common names, so maybe there can be some other input on that?

Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
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pardalinum
Jan 20, 2012 7:42 PM CST
From my reference: Manual of Bulbs, consultant editor John Bryan; series editor Mark Griffiths; derived from The New Royal Horticultural Society Dictionary... Common name Japanese water iris. Synonym Latin name, I. kaempferi Sieb. (I purchased my first JI seeds under the synonym name)

From my reference: Bulbs, Revised Edition by John E. Bryan 2002; Common names: Celestial iris, Japanese iris. Synonym name also noted.

That is what I can find right off hand. I have never heard the name Celestial iris used. Maybe it depends on where one is located... perhaps it is known as this in Japan??
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
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PollyK
Jan 20, 2012 7:50 PM CST
In Japan I think it's that Hanasoku, or something like that. I've never heard of Celestial iris. See there are so many common names that are used in different areas. For ex: Flag. I've heard that for sib, for JIs, for pseudacorus, for Louisiana, for versicolor, and for virginica. So to me Flag means nothing. I've even heard bearded irises called that.
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Jan 20, 2012 8:05 PM CST

Plants Admin

Polly, I just grabbed the most commonly listed common names from the DB. Don't know what's right or wrong. I just call them JI. Green Grin! Japanese Water Iris always aggravated me after learning they usually won't survive a freezing winter in water.
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Jan 20, 2012 8:07 PM (+)]
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Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
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PollyK
Jan 20, 2012 8:08 PM CST
Me either, Evan. Confused
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Jan 20, 2012 8:11 PM CST
Hanashobu. Personally I think Japanese iris should suffice... It is unambiguous, unlike "water iris" which seems to be applied to other irises. I would like to see the term "flag" just disappear altogether...
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Jan 20, 2012 8:15 PM CST

Plants Admin

I'd been thinking some of the common names were artifacts from a bygone era, but if McEwen doesn't use them that doesn't make sense or maybe antiquarian era is more correct.
Evan
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
Image
PollyK
Jan 20, 2012 8:19 PM CST
I agree, but a lot of people will be searching for flag, or German, or maybe even Celestial or Hanashobu (thanks Pard.) So should they be in there as common names or not?

I totally agree that flag should never be used, but I can't recall the number of times someone asked about flag irises on DG.
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Jan 20, 2012 8:26 PM CST

Plants Admin

Shrug! Whatever helps people find these lovelies?
Evan

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