True angustifolia is a larger plant with leaves about 1.5 to 2 times as long as those of viviparra:
http://www.agaveville.org/view...

Agave viviparra:
http://www.agaveville.org/view...

Agave viviparra marginata:
http://www.agaveville.org/view...

I have angustifolia growing - a pup from the plant in the first post of the angustifolia link above and will try and take a picture later. Viviparra will eventually grow a trunk afaik angustifolia does not.

OK, the next batch of front yard agaves (my back yard is the major project part of the garden where things are not quite as nicely planted out):

Agave parryi ssp. neomexicana and Agave sisalana which is recovering from my too rough shake the core to make sure it is rooted well and not beset by weevils treatment. Snapped the growth spike straight off, but as you can see it is already growing on like nothing much happened to it:


Agave cerulata ssp. subcerulata and Agave 'Sawtooth' (lurida):


Agave americana mediopicta alba and Agave 'Green Goblet' - a very green and very sun hardy mid-sized Agave that most resembles a very toothy Agave demeesteriana. I am not sure exactly what it is: a cultivar of demeesteriana or a hybrid, I suspect the latter. It is an abundant offsetter and I got this and another offset from a neighbor who has these growing in all day full sun:


Mangave 'Bloodspot' and what came to me as Agave garcia-mendoza not sure if it is the real deal some pictures look like this others have much wider leaves, may need to grow a bit, this was its first summer in the ground:


Agave lechuguilla and Agave zebra:


Agave recipients and Agave palmeri, which does not look like typical Agave palmeri, so I am hoping it will grow and develop to determine if the ID is correct:


Agave azurea and Agave desertii ssp. simplex:


Agave difformis and what I had hoped was Agave albomarginata when I got it, but based on its color is likely another Agave lechuguilla, but it is much larger and sparsely leaved compared to my other one, so maybe...:


Agave macroacantha #2 - which I transplanted late spring with very little root mass so what we are seeing here is either just a response to a very tough summer or it could be the first signs of it bolting - and one of the 4 large Agave weberis that I have growing, it is the only one I will show during this posting. This one looks like it will flower (though it is a little on the small side) and if it does, I will take it out before it puts it stalk up as I have gone through that 4 times already and because it is in full sun and its flowers are scheduled to open in July-August they just burn up and are not much to look at. It will open up a lot of good space. I am taking out another one which is sick and not recovering despite looking like it would for a while for evermore planting space:


Agave vilmoriniana and Agave asperrima ssp. asperrima:


Agave macroacantha #3 a more green and broader leaved specimen and Agave marmorata #2 with spectacular banding:


Agave 'Emerald Envy' a cultivar or hybrid that is simply spectacular and capable of taking all day full sun with very little extra water during summer here in the Phoenix area and Agave lophantha which also takes the summer sun, but goes very light green yellow even with some extra water:


A two for one: Agave victoriae-reginae #2 and an offset of an unknown Agave, with the parent plant currently buried under a bunch of Cow's Tongue PP and Agave funkiana:

The Cow's Tongue PP is on the list of plants to be removed this winter, it is taking over too much.

Agave americana marginata, with many pups which will be available this coming spring for interested parties and Agave xylonacantha:


Agave titanota #1 and Agave cerulata ssp. nelsonii:


Agave montana and Agave titanonta #2:


OK, time for another break, need to run some errants...

OK, the final batch of front yard Agaves:

Agave viviparra marginata #2 (the bigger one of the two I have) and Agave parrasana:


Agave guiengola and Agave salmiana ssp. crassispina:


Agave asperrima ssp. zarcensis and Agave atrovirens:


Agave avellanidens and a somewhat sun starved Agave potatorum:


Agave mapisaga (the large Agave to the left is one of the weberi) and Agave xarizonica #2:


Agave xglomeruliflora and an unknown (and possibly undescribed Agave) that was obtained as an offset from someone at the DBG at least 10-15 years ago that was given to me by a friend. It is from the region somewhere to the north of Phoenix:


Agave aff. hookeri, but probably not a true hookeri and Agave ovatifolia #2:


And finally Agave tequilana - that needs more sun, but when it was in a more sunny position it constantly got sunburnt so for now it gets to hang here in a very shady spot, since I am planning to remove some big weberis I may have some space with a little more sun to put it in soon. And as the absolute last photo in the front yard batch the carcass of the Agave xylonacantha that flower in the spring of this year and that I removed yesterday:


There are 6 plants in the front yard I did not show pictures of because 4 of those were all weberis (I mentioned 3 of them and the fourth is a small pup of a large sick plant I just removed, I am leaving the pup), then there is a parryi var. truncata, that I just missed, and the final one is the second A. nickelsiae. For a total of 86 in the ground Agaves...

That is a really inspiring group of plants, Thijs.

More agave pictures here from here and there to add to the chorus. Hopefully not too many repeats.

Starting with flowers:




Some plants in the San Diego botanical garden:





Potted plants and landscape plants near here





And a bunch of pictures of the ever-photogenic "Cream Spike", with and without offsets, in juvenile and adult forms

OK, trying one more time to get my back yard in the ground Agave pictures posted. For some reason uploading a few nights ago just let to a very long wait and nothing...

I do not have as many Agaves in the ground in my back yard and they are less photogenic - mainly because I am often out there when the light is just not quite right, but here goes:

Agave ovatifolia and a somewhat whacky Agave potatorum:


Agave gentryi 'Jaws' and Agave sobria fma 'pseudogigantensis':


This came to me as Agave americana, but some days I wonder and Agave chrysantha, a pup from my front yard plant:


Agave angustifolia and Agave asperrima ssp. asperrima:


Agave sobria and Agave parryi var. truncata 'the Huntington Clone':


Agave avellanidens that took a beating this summer, but looks like it will take and a volunteer (from roots from a plant that died) Agave 'FO 76':


Agave cerulata and Agave x nigra 'Sharkskin':


Agave sobria ssp. frailensis and what came to me as Agave parryi:

The cross banding on those sobrias!

Yeah, they are quickly becoming among my favorite agaves.

There's an agave showing on ebay that caught my eye. Agave xylonacantha Variegated "Frostbite".
Copied from ebay



Cost is a little too high but maybe by spring it will come down.

My order just came in from Mountain Crest Gardens. They sold a Agave potatorum variegata and showed a picture of Agave Isthmensis 'Shoji Rajin' Variegata. Thinking I would be getting ripped off and mad but they sold me just what they pictured.


Here's a picture of a typical A. potatorum variegata.


Very good price and fast shipping. I had to add a heat pack due to the cold we are now having. Plants came in excellent condition. And hats off to them. I tried to thank them but couldn't send message.

Nice plants, but I am not sure any of these are actual Agave potatorum. The 2nd one could be, but it would have to grow and develop a bit to be sure as it could easily be a 'kissho kan' or closely related clone with its current leaf shape and spinage, rather than isthmensis or potatorum.

The first ones are definitely mis-identified as they are clearly one of those purported Agave isthmensis sports - by purported Agave isthmensis I mean that it is actually not that clear that the parentage is Agave isthmensis...

I used to have the Agave victoria -regina, albomarginata. Sorry, but never took a photo of it, unfortunately. I can't recall if it was stolen, or what became of it, as I do not remember that it rotted... Lots of nice photos, folks!
I had a trader in Tokyo, & he knew quite a bit about Agave. He had even wrote articles published for the CSSA (which had to be translated from Japanese.) He even explained to me which was the 'real' Kisi yokan (sp.?) It was so long ago, I can't even recall which one it was, anymore. I had no idea that for many years we communicated, he didn't know English. I only assumed so, until he told me many years later on...
Shawn

ShawnSteve, Sounds like a good person to keep in touch with. Can you still communicate with him?

Thijs, Jury's not in yet on Agave potatorum = Agave isthmensis. As to weather isthmensis is a cv. of potatorum. Basically means smaller growing potatorum.

The second one I showed is also known as 'TradeWinds' from Tradewinds nursery.
The bottom two are Japanese hybrids. I had one before and showed on beginning of this post.

From the Huntington.org/botanical div.
A. isthmensis is closely related to A. potatorum and circulated in cultivation as a dwarf form of that species until described in 1993 by García-Mendoza & Palma .
So who knows??? Thank you for your input.

Stush2019 said:Jury's not in yet on Agave potatorum = Agave isthmensis.

Once a species has been described and published in the scientific literature, it has kind of passed a jury verdict. Agave isthmensis is a different species, based on various criteria, though obviously similar to potatorum.

Those miniature agaves, especially the variegates, have long been the realm of guesswork as far as their actual species identity is concerned. Their geographic origin is unknown in nearly every case. I would not use them as any kind of representative version of any species.

@Stush2019 I tried to make a post, but got an error message. Oh well.. Maybe it was TMI? LOL & I thought I might get grilled about something like Agave pumila
I have to agree with Baja_Costero. There are Rules by the Int. Botanical Nomenclature (IBNC ?) They classify our plants for us. Or, "like it or lump it", as the saying goes.... But, isn't it Shoji Raijin ? Or am I wrong on the sp. ? The thing about plants is, that the original source is fairly important to know, otherwise, you may actually get something that ends up growing larger than you expected. There used to be a guy that really knew alot about Agave & was listed in the Cactus & Succulent Plant Mall (look under vendors) that sold plants in the SouthWest. Stiil in business? I dunno....
I used to keep in contact with alot of people when I was very heavily into trading plants & seeds. Now I try to stay away from that & just mainly garden from mailorder sources for my seeds & perennials.
But yeah, the Japanese did hybridize some plants, especially Astrophytums (i.e. Super Kabuto & Onzuka) & Agave , then came up with some really unusual stuff
I recall, Miles said of victoria-regina albomarginata, that there are two forms. As for potatorum, it is a miniature version as far as I know. Be it the small (miniature offsetting form) which looks like a tiny parryi truncata or variegated ', as with the Shoji Raijin' being a so called "isthmensis".
hth Shawn

According to PDN Agave cv. Tradewinds is likely a seedling of Agave 'kissho kan' (which I brought up as a potential ID for Stush's 2nd plant), which they still identify as a sport of Agave potatorum, but that is likely 'potatorum' used to identify Agave isthmensis, as many nursery people here in AZ and also in SoCal do not consider it very likely Agave 'kissho kan' is a sport of a true Agave potatorum, but rather that if it derives from a potatorum like plant it is much more likely to be a sport of Agave isthmensis. Another potential Agave species that might fit as potential parent for 'Kissho kan' is Agave seemannia ssp. pygmaea.

Anyway, if you delve into the potential parentage of the large number of variegated and non-variegated potatorum/isthmensis like cultivars/sports/clones that are going around in the trade, you quickly realize that it is a mess, but that unless it grows over ~2-3 ft wide it is almost certainly not closely related to Agave potatorum. Many of these plants do not reach that size.

To make things more complicated there is another 'Tradewinds' plant that was (is?) sold out of SoCal that is likely a variegated version of a cultivar of Agave Rosa Gorda (aka Confederate Rose), named 'Desert Rose', which has much more mammillate leaves than 'kissho kan' and related plants...

bottom line: those are some really nice plants and they may well be associated with Agave isthmensis in some way or form, but unless they grow pretty big they are unlikely to be potatorum as the plant is now defined.

The thing about science is every 50 years or so they find they have it all wrong. That's why I said the Jury is not in. Too much confusion about weather isthmensis is it's own species, a hybrid, or a cv. of another like potatorum. So it is the consensus that patatorum is not isthmensis. (for now).
Still doesn't stop the double naming of same plant as A. isthmensis variegata or A. patatorum variegata.

I have not done my 'homework' on much of this, but I do recall, I was told that the way we Americans spell Kisi yokan, was not correct, in Japanese. I may have done so incorrectly myself, but is the way I recall being corrected on that matter. But, I only know very little, in Japanese.Besides which, there was only one true 'Kisi Yokan', that was explained to me. Maybe a babblfish, or translate website can help.. All I had to do then, was ask, for instance; What does the name of my Dahllia 'Tsuki Nori No Shisha' mean? & the reply was 'Messenger of the Moon". Simple...
My trader wrote articles, but it was about some other rather more obscure succulents, than about Agave.
Hybrids, can cause odd colors &[ or variegation & even stunted growth ( or more vigorous plants) and even sterilty...
But, living in Tokyo is quite expensive, even many years ago, as back then a Big Mac was priced at about $10. So he wanted one from the States.. It was just never purchased, .bid on at auction, or ordered online... Though it seemed to be listed online, for sale in S. Carolina..
My trader wanted that specific Agave cv & because it seemed rather difficult to determine, exactly whom it was, offering up the real true to name cv..it was not ordered. It may have been, listed by Tradewinds, but not sure if that was the name of the online merchant. I do think it was an online nursery most likely located in South Carolina, as I recall
hth, Shawn

The published spelling of the name of the happy crown agave in Greg Starr's Agaves book is "Kissho Kan" for this variegated plant

Happy Crown Agave (Agave 'Kissho Kan')

and "Kichijokan" for the non-variegated parent.

Happy Crown Agave (Agave 'Kichijokan')

There is only one true "Kissho Kan" (that I know of).

I think that the potatorum/isthmensis confusion right now is mainly an issue in the trade - where you are right that these kind of plants (including Agaves 'Kissho Kan' and 'Kichijokan') get named in inconsistent ways. However, double naming that plant as Agave potatorum (isthmensis) variegata is incorrect no matter how you look at it, since these plants have been considered separate species since 1993. It cannot be both.

When you talk about revisions to plant nomenclature, often it is not so much a question of right or wrong (obviously there are always exceptions to that), but a change in/evolution of thought as new information has become available. In this case it is not just a question of lumpers vs. splitters, but a more careful study of Agave isthmensis vs. potatorum in habitat (not in cultivation) has uncovered some vital differences between the two plants that make it pretty obvious that Agave isthmensis is a separate species. Aside from obvious differences in mature size, there is offsetting behavior and most importantly differences in flowers and seed pods and flowering time. The flowering (late summer vs. December) is very different between the two species, which is pretty telling and would suggest that this is not going make it very easy to change it back to these species being one and the same any time soon.

It would be nice to support this with some genetic evidence, but while you see that more and more in botanical studies, it is not universally applied mostly because of cost, access, and the need for quite an expanded knowledge base in terms of how to deal with the results, compared to standard botanical data.

@Baja_Costero ok. That's who had the Agave nursery out west! I guess Greg really did his homework on Agave. It may be published as such, but I was corrected about the proper spelling of the cultivar name, by a Japanese grower...Not sure I recall it correctly, perfectly...But, publishing something in print about Agave, does not necessarily make one fluent in Japanese, either! It is no big deal. I mispell words & notice others may also. The brain gets things stored into long term memory, by sort of regenerating that same info & then it gets reprocessed over & over, again. It gets perpetually restored :Like a reincarnated thought. Shawn