I agree! The first pic appears to be Black Swallowtails.
Or could be Pipevine Swallowtails. Here's a pic of a Black Swallowtail fresh out of chrysalis. And a pic of an old chrysalis for comparison.

gardenfish said: quoted a expert on environmental restoration who said our all efforts to replant and replace the native milkweed are too little and too late.

Ah. The "experts." The experts who keep saying our efforts are futile. Perhaps these same experts weren't aware about the near extinction of the Kunta butterfly.

I can understand their point, but that's not enough to stop me in my tracks. My counterpoint: read up on the tale of the Kunta butterfly and never say never.

Good earth stewardship should be practiced regardless of what experts say.

SassyBloomer said:

Ah. The "experts." The experts who keep saying our efforts are futile. Perhaps these same experts weren't aware about the near extinction of the Kunta butterfly.

I can understand their point, but that's not enough to stop me in my tracks. My counterpoint: read up on the tale of the Kunta butterfly and never say never.

Good earth stewardship should be practiced regardless of what experts say.

Sassy, I'm with you. And so I've been scattering milkweed seeds everywhere I possibly can. I plant them in my garden so I'll be sure to have a lot when their time comes. Besides, the insides of those seed pods are almost as beautiful as the flowers themselves!

Well, SassyBloomer, what you say is true, but please remember, these folks ( the experts) do have degrees and have spent many years in the field studying these very issues.... which is something we can't or don't do. I don't ever try to sayI know more than these "experts". The point is that if the environmentalists and scientists don't raise the alarm nothing will be done AT ALL. So in retrospect, maybe they NEED to be doom and gloom sayers. If I can assume this Kunta butterfly you are referring to is not a native species, that just points out the importance of saving our OWN native species first, and then turn our efforts to world wide imperiled animals and insects.
This is exactly what we should do with our efforts to feed hungry people. Let's feed our own hungry people right here in the USA. Charity and good works begin at home.

gardenfish said:Well, SassyBloomer, what you say is true, but please remember, these folks ( the experts) do have degrees and have spent many years in the field studying these very issues.... which is something we can't or don't do. I don't ever try to sayI know more than these "experts".

As it relates to the topic of gardening, one should never, EVER, consider oneself as an "expert." I don't care if that person has a thousand degrees and spent a GAZILLION hours in the field. There is ALWAYS MORE information to learn; the climate is ALWAYS changing; there are ALWAYS new pests that keep popping up and killing plants. There is ALWAYS new information coming about. Ergo, the "expert" as part of their title(s) is arrogant and unnecessary, and, thanks to social media, sounds like a caricature. "Experienced" is more human-friendly, as it implies vast knowledge in their field with room for new information. I trust you can notice the difference.

Ex: In the last ten years, lots of "experts" have told us to garden one way, and woops, now we have an invasive plant problem in the US.

It depends on the topic at hand. Otherwise I don't rely on the advice of "experts" too much, because a) their advice is ill-informed, or b) the "advice" is incentivized (the worst kind) or c) the info will change dramatically 5-10 years from now.

In closing: you throw the word "expert" at me and I'll run the other way. FAR away.

QUOTE: @gardenfish
[quote]The point is that if the environmentalists and scientists don't raise the alarm nothing will be done AT ALL.[\qoute]

I neglected to mention....nothing HAS been done, or not doing ENOUGH. That's why we're in the invasive plant mess right now!

That's why I'm a huge admirer of Professor Doug Tallamy, an EXPERIENCED bug man who gave exactly the right message sprinkled with a side of hope. Also, the Kunta butterfly is a native of Florida. I'd post a link but don't know if it's allowed? At any rate, search by "tallamy Kunta extinction " , or various, and the story should populate.

SassyBloomer said:QUOTE: @gardenfish
[quote]The point is that if the environmentalists and scientists don't raise the alarm nothing will be done AT ALL.[\qoute]

I neglected to mention....nothing HAS been done, or not doing ENOUGH. That's why we're in the invasive plant mess right now!

That's why I'm a huge admirer of Professor Doug Tallamy, an EXPERIENCED bug man who gave exactly the right message sprinkled with a side of hope. Also, the Kunta butterfly is a native of Florida. I'd post a link but don't know if it's allowed? At any rate, search by "tallamy Kunta extinction " , or various, and the story should populate.

Sure it's allowed. I think there's a waiting period for new members, just to prevent spammers. Give it a try. Either it'll work or it won't!

Ok, I will settle this in this manner. I don't always think it's necessary to be so forceful, but this case this calls for plain language, verifiable facts and not personal opinion. The expert to whom I referred to is Tierea Curry, a senior scientist at the Center for Biological Diversity. Please take note this is not some "gardener." This is her quote verbatim. " Monarchs are too important for us to just plant flowers on roadsides and hope for the best". There is more that she said, but this is exactly the point I was making.
RE the many so called gardening experts, I do believe that to determine who is a real garden expert one needs to establish their credentials as to whether they have any degrees in horticulture and whether they have worked many hours in their chosen fields of study. With the availability of the Internet and the onset of You Tube, anyone can produce videos on gardening techniques and call themselves an expert; discerning gardeners will pick right up on these imposters, and speedily reject their crack pot advice.If people accept the advice coming from them as advice from an expert, the onus is on them for being so gullible.
It is insulting to compare Ms Curry to these kind of experts or to deny her credibility in the very specific field she has chosen to be her life's work, and not only that, in her real efforts not only to save the Monarch but all the native pollinators who share the Monarchs place in our ecosystem and who's fate is entwined with the Monarchs fate.
If the previous statements haven't clarified the contents of my original post, let's look at this using a model based on a creation of a possible real life scenario.
You own an older house, and you have discovered that the wiring is outdated, something that was revealed when you inspected the circuit box; this inspection has shown that while portions of your electrical outlets throughout the home are directed through circuit breakers, other electrical outlets are directed through old fashioned fuses, which are always susceptible to burn out if you have too many appliances, etc operating at one time. Perhaps you've even blown fuses regularly already. You make the decision to call in an expert to take care of this problem and fix the electrical problems. So you go to the phone and you call a plumber?.....
Of course you don't! You call a electrician.
Because this post is a rebuttal concerning who is an expert in Monarchs and who is not, I will conclude by paraphrasing Dr. Faucis quote, because in this
particular situation could not be more pertinent: Follow the science.

This is indeed good news about the revelation that the particular butterfly previously mentioned IS a native: and that a renowned, esteemed entomologist has taken up the call in the concern over the possible extinction of this species; but acknowledgment of this does in no way lessen the demand for equal acknowledgment for others that are are as equally dedicated and deservedly viewed as experts in their similar or disparate chosen fields of study or conservation efforts.
Again, a simple interpretation.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

gardenfish said:Ok, I will settle this in this manner. I don't always think it's necessary to be so forceful, but this case this calls for plain language, verifiable facts and not personal opinion. The expert to whom I referred to is Tierea Curry, a senior scientist at the Center for Biological Diversity. Please take note this is not some "gardener." This is her quote verbatim. " Monarchs are too important for us to just plant flowers on roadsides and hope for the best". There is more that she said, but this is exactly the point I was making.
RE the many so called gardening experts, I do believe that to determine who is a real garden expert one needs to establish their credentials as to whether they have any degrees in horticulture and whether they have worked many hours in their chosen fields of study. With the availability of the Internet and the onset of You Tube, anyone can produce videos on gardening techniques and call themselves an expert; discerning gardeners will pick right up on these imposters, and speedily reject their crack pot advice.If people accept the advice coming from them as advice from an expert, the onus is on them for being so gullible.
It is insulting to compare Ms Curry to these kind of experts or to deny her credibility in the very specific field she has chosen to be her life's work, and not only that, in her real efforts not only to save the Monarch but all the native pollinators who share the Monarchs place in our ecosystem and who's fate is entwined with the Monarchs fate.
If the previous statements haven't clarified the Follow the science.

I've followed the science. You know where it led me to? It took me back to *2015 when the president of Mexico was the one who SOUNDED THE ALARM about the Monarch decline and sparked nationwide campaigns. No one with "esteemed horticulture credentials." Nobody from the US. It was someone from OUTSIDE THE U.S. with little to no horticulture experience. Had it not been for the PRESIDENT OF MEXICO, would we even be having this discussion?

*source: university of Illinois Champaign- extension

gardenfish said:You own an older house, and you have discovered that the wiring is outdated, something that was revealed when you inspected the circuit box; this inspection has shown that while portions of your electrical outlets throughout the home are directed through circuit breakers, other electrical outlets are directed through old fashioned fuses, which are always susceptible to burn out if you have too many appliances, etc operating at one time. Perhaps you've even blown fuses regularly already. You make the decision to call in an expert to take care of this problem and fix the electrical problems. So you go to the phone and you call a plumber?.....
Of course you don't! You call a electrician.

I would SHOP AROUND for a electrician, one who is EXPERIENCED or at least knows their way around wires. Actually, the latter is more important to me. Since my husband fits this category, he takes care of most electrical issues. He is not certified. My house is still standing.

Let's bring this thread back up to speed, shall we?

Please note: this photo is from 2017. I recently backed up all my photos from last year, so only a few pics are readily accessible. But I found this handsome man. I can't let him slip by unnoticed:

Sassy, that is so beautiful that it looks almost unreal!

The thread usually comes very alive more toward spring in the US.

joannakat said:Sassy, that is so beautiful that it looks almost unreal!

The thread usually comes very alive more toward spring in the US.

I can attest, with 100% certainty, that butterfly is VERY real.

Backstory: I was setting him free, as he emerged from his chrysalis hours before. I was lucky that he was willing to "pose" for me so I capitalized the moment and took a pic. That's also why you see my hand🤣

SassyBloomer said:

I can attest, with 100% certainty, that butterfly is VERY real.

Backstory: I was setting him free, as he emerged from his chrysalis hours before. I was lucky that he was willing to "pose" for me so I capitalized the moment and took a pic. That's also why you see my hand🤣

Forgot to add:
Additionally, if you look carefully, you can see the dill (out of focus) in the background.

SassyBloomer said:I can attest, with 100% certainty, that butterfly is VERY real.

Never doubted it for a moment. It's just so perfect!!!

This is from 2020:


I was thinking about turning this into a poster with some cutesy saying about change, dreams, blah blah.

SassyBloomer said:This is from 2020:


I was thinking about turning this into a poster with some cutesy saying about change, dreams, blah blah.

It's a beautiful one. High hopes?

joannakat said:

It's a beautiful one. High hopes?

Hm, no, because I'll think it's referencing one of my climbing roses (also called "High Hopes." ) 🤣

Here's lookin at ya!