Cyclaminist said:Hmm, I looked at some pictures, and they don't seem to show horsechestnut leaves as being in an umbrella shape in the bud: rather the leaflets point upwards (like an umbrella blown by the wind). Presumably the leaflets later flop downwards as they unfurl.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Two of those have flower heads emerging, but yes at first they look like they emerge upright then droop quite soon. The photos of young leaves shown here are still in the upright position straight from the ground which isn't what I have seen, the norm is they come from buds on the previous years stems. The question is, can they come from the roots of the tree like that. It does look like they do but until I have found evidence of it then I am sceptical. There's so may 'red herrings' in identification you have to be careful, what the eye sees isn't always what is reality. There's always 'what ifs', what if seed has blown from a nearby plant, or dropped by a bird, what if someone decided to cover an old stump with plants, what if the plant was already there before the tree was chopped.

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

I would be scratching down in the soil to see where these come from, but there appears to be wire over the area so that won't be easy.

In the first photos posted, look at the small plant on the right (linked below). The young leaves are still upright even with new growth coming from the centre. If it's a hybrid this might happen.

http://garden.org/pics/2016-04...

Danita said:Has anyone compared it to the hybrid Aesculus x carnea cultivars?
They are A. hippocastanum x A. pavia crosses. They can have 5-7 leaflets. The are also used as street trees.

I have no experience with Aesculus x carnea but I have Aesculus pavia. In Aesculus pavia, the new leaves emerge in an upright position right before drooping. They also keep that "droopy and curled around the edges" look for a while. A. pavia has 5 leaflets though, so that's why I wondered about the hybrids which might combine some of the characteristics of both parents.

Here is my Aesculus pavia still sporting its "droopy and curled" look.

Those leaves do look a lot like it! I came across a hybrid earlier with reddish leaves but haven't looked further.

I found one called Aesculus x carnea 'Briotii' which has red flowers and is smaller, something like that would make more sense for a street tree.

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plan...

They come pruned to shape ..

https://www.ornamental-trees.c...

Photos of Aesculus x carnea Briotii showing some leaves with 7 leaflets ..

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

It is unusual for a hybrid in that it is fertile and breeds true from seed.

https://www.chewvalleytrees.co...

5-7 leaflets

http://hort.ufl.edu/database/d...

From a bit of reading I did, horse chestnut isn't a common tree in the area at least in part because of hardiness (there aren't too many where I am either but Chicago would be a little milder) and most that are there are are planted in private gardens rather than as street trees.

I actually managed to find the street on Google and there was nothing growing around the stump when Google went by as far as I can see, but I don't know how long ago that was taken. So unfortunately the tree wasn't still standing, which was what I had hoped. I went up and down the street and didn't see anything that was obviously a horse chestnut although unfortunately it must have been in autumn because the leaves were dropping and some trees had none - the shapes didn't look right though (oddly in one "frame" a tree had a full crop of green leaves and in another the same tree was leafless!).

Looking around the area it's hard to see where a Rodgersia might have come from or why someone would plant any there. I imagine it is possible some squirrel planted "conkers" in the bare spot if there is a horse chestnut somewhere in the area.

This article, Root and Stem Suckers on Common Horse Chestnut, may support this being from the original tree that was planted there. The first paragraph on page 40 describes stem and root suckers around a stump that had been cut down (for some reason known only to itself my iPad refuses to cut and paste the paragraph here). Too bad the pictures aren't included in the PDF. The question remains why a horse chestnut might have been planted in this unlikely spot in Chicago but seemingly, if it was, then it is possible these are emanating from the stump.
http://merlin.up.poznan.pl/ste...

Well done Sue!

There were numerous, vigorous stem suckers that had developed along nearly the entire circumference of the stump from its cambium
layer.

There were also stem suckers that had developed from the root collar, although they were not as numerous.

In addition, roots suckers developed from adventitious buds formed on roots in three locations around the trunk. Each consisted of several vigorous stems (Phot. 1, 2). Two were 80 cm, while the third was 120 cm from the stump.

It would appear these have come from the root collar.

I think it would have to be the red flowering cross, they are hardy to zone 4 and tolerate some dryness but still it would be an odd place to put such a tree and there was no other like it in the street. That would also seem odd if it was deliberately planted as such a tree would usually be planted in numbers.

How did you know where to look on google? Did I miss something? When doing a street search you can get different years when changing direction, I found that recently. It should give a month and year in small type along the bottom. You can choose different periods of street search on google maps online but can only choose different periods from the aerial view on google earth.

In one of the pictures it shows an intersection with a Western Union across the street - turns out there are about a zillion Western Unions in Chicago, so I looked for one that had a street name that seemed to match the length of the fuzzy letters in the steet name to the left in the picture - I got lucky and hit on the right Western Union on the third go just before I was thinking it was probably a lost cause. So all I had to do then was turn left onto N. Kedzie Avenue and there was the stump! Your secrets are not safe here

sooby said:In one of the pictures it shows an intersection with a Western Union across the street - turns out there are about a zillion Western Unions in Chicago, so I looked for one that had a street name that seemed to match the length of the fuzzy letters in the steet name to the left in the picture - I got lucky and hit on the right Western Union on the third go just before I was thinking it was probably a lost cause. So all I had to do then was turn left onto N. Kedzie Avenue and there was the stump! Your secrets are not safe here

I looked at the shop across the main road but I don't know what a Western Union looks like there.

Great spying!

Image capture November 2015. There's nothing to be seen, but from a side shot a small stump can be seen although it looks like a plastic milk bottle. There doesn't appear to be any new growth at that time, but all this looks new down to the ground so must have grown this spring.





September 2007 the tree was alive, it's not very big and the photo is blurry.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/...

The bark looks silvery ..



Dead in April and August 2012 ..

Look at September 2013, the tree before it has small compound leaves which look like Gleditsia or something similar. The growth habit looks similar to the dead tree. It's the only other tree with the same metal grate around it so I would think they were planted at the same time.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/...

There's a split in the bark too. And a kind of collar around the base. It's hard to say what it might have been but I don't think it's clearly not a horse chestnut? Really super sleuthing, Janet, how do you get the past pictures?

Cross posted, yes I'd thought several of the other trees in the street were Gleditsia. It's a common street tree. I'm not sure the architecture is typical on that dead one though, they usually look a bit more "gnarly". I also thought the dead one didn't have much in the way of opposite branching, but do horse chestnuts necessarily branch at each node?

Well on second look there is some opposite branching. I'm pretty sure it's not a Gleditsia as the twigs are too straight and smooth looking.

September 2013, the tree next to it with a metal grate with close up of leaves. The tree habit looks the same as the dead one. Further back in front of flats there's different trees which look the same as each other. On the other side of the road are mature trees, all have small compound leaves.



Sue, you get past images from the small box at the top left, slide the big dot back then click on the magnifier symbol within the box.

The dead tree looks to have similar bark to the one next to it, sort of silvery with a brownish hue and splits in the bark. It would look a little different due to it's younger age.

Aesculus trees tend to have knobbly young branches, these are too straight.

I'm pretty much certain the trees with leaves, both that one and down the street, are Gleditsia. They're ubiquitous as street trees. But without leaves they don't look as smooth (to me) as the dead one. I may be able to get a picture later of a youngish Gleditisia without leaves because they're not yet leafed out here - I think my Gleditsia 'Shademaster' is too big now to be useful for comparison.

Interesting! I went back to 2007, there's larger trees further back towards the flats with metal grates around them. Go further back and you will see those flats weren't there then, there was 6 lots for sale!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/...

Ha! I went to May 2012, the tree was in leaf then! Definitely not Aesculus! It has small leaves!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/...

By July 2012 it had just a few leaves left on it! Was it a hot dry year?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/...

The lot for the flats was cleared by then.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/...

Both trees bare in October 2012.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/...

Doesn't look like Aesculus, nor is it Gleditsia like the one next to it. I did think I saw an ash or two further down the road but I'm not at all sure it's that either. There are a lot of maples on the streets around there but the leaves look small even for that - do you or anyone else have photoshop type software and can sharpen the image to see the leaves better?

You people are amazing!

Janet, the tree to the right of the Gleditsia looks somewhat similarly leafed in your July 2012 picture and it has some die back.

It's a good job I got May 2012, it's not coming up now for that period.

I don't have photoshop but will see what I can do with what I have, Photorazor is good for enlargement and increases quality.

I'm not getting July 2012 again either, it goes straight to August 2012! The links still show those dates though.

Yes I see the one to the right of the Gleditsia has die back at the top middle, the leaves are small but I can't see them well.

Two trees further to the right and there's another dying!