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May 12, 2016 5:41 AM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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Hybrid Elms
Accolade Elm
Commendation Elm
Pioneer Elm
Triumph Elm
Ginkgo
Princeton Sentry ginkgo
Magyar ginkgo
Skyline Honeylocust
Chicagoland Hackberry
Chanticleer Pear
Kentucky Coffeetree

Avoid: Honeylocust, Norway maple and Silver Maple
Chanticleer Pear
Kentucky Coffeetree

I don't think there was powerlines there so they can be ignored.

That's a little easier to follow than the other chart which greene found and I also found later while searching.

http://www.cityofchicago.org/c...

Waiting for those pics Junker!

Hurray! My Rodgersia is growing after we had a good lot of rain! It's racing away, I have 4 stems now (after about 10 years), the tallest is around a foot tall and Hurray! Hurray! Hurray! it has it's first flower head!!!
Last edited by JRsbugs May 12, 2016 6:01 AM Icon for preview
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May 12, 2016 6:15 AM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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ACCOLADE is a vase shaped, medium to large, deciduous elm


ACCOLADE has excellent resistance to Dutch elm disease. It is susceptible to phloem necrosis which is a viral disease that attacks the food-conducting tissue of the tree, usually resulting in a loosening of the bark, wilting, defoliation and death.


http://trees.umn.edu/nursery-t...

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

Named by the Society of Municipal Arborists as the 2012 Urban Tree of the Year, Accoladeâ„¢ elm is one of the top-performing trees for urban and residential planting in the Chicago region. This hybrid elm provides the iconic vase-shape American elm habit but is resistant to Dutch elm disease and elm leaf beetle.


http://www.chicagobotanic.org/...

Accolade Elm bark, maybe a little older than the tree but it's silvery grey.

http://www.ci.fargo.nd.us/atta...
Last edited by JRsbugs May 12, 2016 6:26 AM Icon for preview
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May 12, 2016 6:54 AM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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Usually, the signs of elm phloem necrosis become visible between July and September


Although some elms die within a few weeks after EY infection, usually when disease symptoms appear in June/July the tree will be killed by the end of the growing season.


http://mauget.com/glossary/phl...

In May 2012 the tree was in full leaf. In July 2012 there was just a few leaves left!

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/9db1ef

If you look carefully at the September 2007 capture to the top left, you can see Elm shaped leaves.
Avatar for Junker1004
May 12, 2016 1:08 PM CST
Thread OP

Hopefully these help, the plant is crazy vigorous, new buds etc.


Thumb of 2016-05-12/Junker1004/5fcc04
Thumb of 2016-05-12/Junker1004/fbf668
Thumb of 2016-05-12/Junker1004/293788
Thumb of 2016-05-12/Junker1004/181232
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May 12, 2016 3:08 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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The last pic shows an Elm seed very clearly!

There's something else which could be a seed to at the bottom right.

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/76cc81

I can see the conker, it has a cross/crack in the top. I found some today which were only 3/4" or less in diameter, and growing, one I pulled up still had the small conker attached with an old stem from last year and a short amount of new growth this year with two leaves. The stems are quite thin on new plants from seed and they are slow.

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/956baf

Now the interesting parts!

My Rodgersia which is R. pinnata has shot up very quickly, I'm not sure when I last looked but I said 6 days ago it wasn't showing and I think I have looked since. It's racing away which is what Junker's are doing, something I don't think an Aesculus does but hybrids might.

The thickest stem which has the flower shooting off the side of it has some hairs still attached, these must have grown in the last 3 days or so, I think there's the beginnings of some white spots too. Junker's plant didn't show 'lenticels' for a start and as mine is very new I will be watching to see how it develops. I had a job getting decent shots with my macro lens from an angle above, the plant is behind other plants and in a shady spot.

The biggest stem is about a foot tall so far but will get taller, with a leaf on top and a branch off it with the flower buds. I could only get it in in sections.

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/215d86 Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/16f48c Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/899e0b

An open leaf on a new stem which is very small .. the other stems do come up a distance away from the main stem.

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/b2bbf9

Two new stems about 6" tall several inches away from the main stem ...

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/6989ba

A close up of the main stem with flowering branch ... I can see white spots forming!

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/e1d5d5

Check out this new leaf opening on Junker's plant, then compare those seemingly separately attached teeth on the edges of the leaf. Look carefully at mine and compare (bear in mind mine isn't Rodgersia aesculifolia) ..

Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/141312 Thumb of 2016-05-12/JRsbugs/878401



One final point, Aesculus leaves are quite papery in texture, Rodgersia is more substantial.
Last edited by JRsbugs May 12, 2016 3:17 PM Icon for preview
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May 12, 2016 8:45 PM CST
Name: Gabriel
Minneapolis, Minnesota (Zone 5a)
Freezing winters, warm summers
Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Region: Minnesota Enjoys or suffers cold winters
I don't think the old Google Maps photos are clear enough to show the now-dead tree's leaves. It's true they don't look big enough for a healthy horsechestnut, but it's hard for me to see them as looking like anything at all because the picture's so blurry.

From sites I briefly read, lenticels, the white dots on the mystery sprout, only appear on woody plants. So I highly doubt Rogersia will ever show them, since it is herbaceous.
Last edited by Cyclaminist May 12, 2016 8:47 PM Icon for preview
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May 13, 2016 5:39 AM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
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I must admit I also have a hard time making out the leaves although the late 2007 picture shows them appearing larger but it's much too fuzzy.

My understanding is also that lenticels are only on woody plants but the dots don't necessarily have to be lenticels. I was looking for them on Rodgersia pictures on the assumption that they could be something else, like glands. This plant, for example, has glands on the stems but it's an annual:

https://www.minnesotawildflowe...

I didn't see anything resembling glands on the Rodgersia pictures but most don't go in close-up to the stem. It'll be interesting to see what develops on Janet's plant. I did have a Rodgersia here once but it didn't survive its first winter. It may be possible to look at their stems in garden centres/nurseries however. Horse chestnut does have white dot-like lenticels so it was a point of differentiation until Janet's Rodgersia appeared to be developing them.

How or why a Rodgersia plant would appear in that spot is still hard to understand in that location though. Also why a horse chestnut, come to that, unless there's one in the area that was visited by an industrious squirrel.
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May 13, 2016 11:34 AM CST
Name: Gabriel
Minneapolis, Minnesota (Zone 5a)
Freezing winters, warm summers
Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Region: Minnesota Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Perhaps a way to distinguish glands from lenticels is that glands would generally be sticking out of the plant, while lenticels would be holes in the surface (since they're stomata that let gases in and out).
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May 13, 2016 12:01 PM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
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Cyclaminist said:Perhaps a way to distinguish glands from lenticels is that glands would generally be sticking out of the plant, while lenticels would be holes in the surface (since they're stomata that let gases in and out).


Lenticels are raised also, this picture shows them on horse chestnut:

https://www.google.ca/search?q...
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May 13, 2016 12:52 PM CST
Name: Gabriel
Minneapolis, Minnesota (Zone 5a)
Freezing winters, warm summers
Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Region: Minnesota Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Yes, slightly raised. I think glands are more raised, something like hairs, though. I could be wrong.
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May 13, 2016 2:53 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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Time will tell! Both possibilities seem odd and difficult to explain. If the stems harden later in the year we can rule out Rodgersia, assuming they don't all get cut off.

Things to consider for Aesculus:

1) 5 to 7 leaves
2) Dead tree not likely to have been Aesculus.
3) Wire surrounding stump where plants are growing so a squirrel wouldn't be able to bury seeds.
4) There is a 'conker' on the surface.
5) Wire could have been removed to bury conkers and replaced but the growth is too robust for first year seedlings.
6) No obvious signs of plants present in November 2015 or earlier.
7) There may be one thinner old stem showing behind current stems, a second one I ringed I think is a current stem cut off and browning as
an earlier pic shows a green cut off stem.
8) There's Elm seeds on the ground.
9) A further light brown oval shaped possible seed is present.
10) If growing from conkers, after several days, in fact two weeks and 3 days, the leaves have still not opened out flat like an Aesculus would do. The leaves on my tree as still drooping a little although nearly straightened out, and are not curled under at the edges.
11) The stems look fleshy, but have developed white 'spots' after initially having none. New stems on Horse Chestnut don't look so fleshy.
12) What are the chances the dead tree was a hybrid Aesculus, and the growths are coming from the cut off trunk collar?

The leaves I thought resembled Elm I have ringed, they are dark and the pic is blurred but check the shape out with the pic of Accolade Elm twig & leaves on the following link:

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

Thumb of 2016-05-13/JRsbugs/91f72e

Things to consider for Rodgersia:

1) Quick growing
2) Leaves match Rodgersia aesculifolia but could easily match Aesculus, if one with 7 leaves could be found which behaves like this.
3) The chances of a Rodgersia growing there seems low, and if someone had planted some there then they are well advanced considering
there was nothing visible in the google steet images. The only way I can see such advanced plants could be Rodgersia is if more than one was planted this spring, with varying sizes of plants. Why would anyone do that? To cover the stump? Someone had plants spare so thought it was a good way to use them? Hilarious! Could the plants have been growing other years but after google street took images, and died back before later images were taken?
4) Rodgersia stems are fleshy, the thickest of mine is around half an inch and only just emerged.
5) Do Rodgersia stems have white 'spots'? They might have!

I went back through the pics, I noticed something which seems odd for Aesculus on one of the younger stems. There appears to be a 'collar' at ground level which the stem appears to be growing out of. My biggest Rodgersia stem has burst from a similar collar.

Thumb of 2016-05-13/JRsbugs/e7801f Thumb of 2016-05-13/JRsbugs/8e5e1a

What is that other seed, it looks much like Aesculus pavia. Could it be a hybrid of A. pavia which is quick growing?

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

http://thequeenofseaford.blogs...

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

Danita said:Has anyone compared it to the hybrid Aesculus x carnea cultivars?
They are A. hippocastanum x A. pavia crosses. They can have 5-7 leaflets. The are also used as street trees.

I have no experience with Aesculus x carnea but I have Aesculus pavia. In Aesculus pavia, the new leaves emerge in an upright position right before drooping. They also keep that "droopy and curled around the edges" look for a while. A. pavia has 5 leaflets though, so that's why I wondered about the hybrids which might combine some of the characteristics of both parents.

Here is my Aesculus pavia still sporting its "droopy and curled" look.

Thumb of 2016-04-17/Danita/c91707
Last edited by JRsbugs May 13, 2016 3:16 PM Icon for preview
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May 13, 2016 4:07 PM CST
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX (Zone 9a)
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I am really fascinated by this thread, and the detective work is impressive. I very much want to know what this plant and tree are, but I hate for the story to end!
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May 13, 2016 4:18 PM CST
Name: Gabriel
Minneapolis, Minnesota (Zone 5a)
Freezing winters, warm summers
Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Region: Minnesota Enjoys or suffers cold winters
The leaf-like things in the blurry photo could be elm leaves, but they could also be horsechestnut leaflets. Leaves of a larger-leaved elm (that is, not Siberian or Chinese elm) are about the size of horsechestnut leaflets, I think.

The elm seed on the ground can only have fallen this year from a living tree growing in the area, since elm samaras rot quickly once they hit the ground.

The bark of the tree (gray, smooth-ish) could be that of a young Aesculus, at least judging from these photos of horsechestnut bonsai on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Not sure if young buckeye bark is similar or different.

I'm puzzled: these pictures on Flickr show Rodgersia aesculifolia with alternate, not opposite, leaves. And your photo of a different Rodgersia species also shows alternate leaves. Where did we get this idea that Rodgersia has opposite leaves?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Last edited by Cyclaminist May 13, 2016 4:26 PM Icon for preview
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May 13, 2016 4:42 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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Opposite leaves on this Rodgersia:

https://namethatplant.files.wo...

They apparently very a great deal, and can cross breed.
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May 13, 2016 5:02 PM CST
Name: Gabriel
Minneapolis, Minnesota (Zone 5a)
Freezing winters, warm summers
Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Region: Minnesota Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Right, that was the photo. Well, there's one stalk that appears to have opposite leaves, but it looks like it's malformed (and thus has an unusual leaf arrangement) or there's another stalk behind it. As for the other flower stalks in the photo, the angle isn't right to show whether they have alternate or opposite leaves. So the photo does not seem very clear evidence either way. Have you found any other photos showing opposite arrangement?
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May 13, 2016 5:27 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis,MN, USA z4b,Dfb/a
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Well, I have to say this: there certainly is a penchant for conjecture here (which may turn out to be wrong or right). Smiling

The Rogersia photo presently in question also shows an alternate arrangement with the nodes directly above the opposite leaves. I suspect Rogersia is one of those plants that changes its pattern as the stem ascends, likely only with flowering stems. The "malform" of the opposite leaves I wonder about too, as there seems to be another to the right. I am still questioning if non-flowering stems elongate or not.

But, I can say this: there are no elms with twigs so thick and rigid, buds so big, internodes so long or twig branch angles so wide. The structure of the dead tree is just all wrong for elm.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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May 13, 2016 5:30 PM CST
Name: greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
I have no use for internet bullies!
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Just sitting back and watching the action. This has got to be the absolute best ever mystery ID. Thumbs up
Keep up the good work! Thumbs up
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May 13, 2016 5:46 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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I don't think the stalk is malformed, if you look at other stalks you can see the new growth grows in a similar fashion sort of out of a collar.

There's a lot of named hybrids apart from those which might self cross.

http://www.saxifraga.org/plant...

The keys don't mention anything about leaves on the stem being either, but it is mentioned in some that the upper leaves (I think when not palmate) are usually opposite. Keys don't necessarily mention all features as it's a knock out process, but there are descriptions as well.

http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/c...
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May 13, 2016 6:29 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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Leftwood said:But, I can say this: there are no elms with twigs so thick and rigid, buds so big, internodes so long or twig branch angles so wide. The structure of the dead tree is just all wrong for elm.


Look at Accolade Elm which I posted the details of above.

Structure is vase shaped.

I can't see any buds.

The angles are much the same.

Internodes are difficult to see.

I don't know about thick, but some twigs are rigid.

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

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May 13, 2016 6:40 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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Cyclaminist said:The elm seed on the ground can only have fallen this year from a living tree growing in the area, since elm samaras rot quickly once they hit the ground.

The bark of the tree (gray, smooth-ish) could be that of a young Aesculus, at least judging from these photos of horsechestnut bonsai on Flickr:


The Elm seed may have only fallen this year, but it shows there are Elms used nearby.

Look at the pic of the fallen Accolade Elm in my last post. It is one of the best trees which are used in Chicago in metal surround cut outs.

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