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Nov 5, 2016 7:22 PM CST
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Today was the first day of our fall Orchid Society show and sale. (I got first place in at least one category - pics later).

Our guest speaker is Curtis Gene, expert in west coast native orchids and AOS judge. I spent the day gleaning information. One of the topics was a piece of pathetic Cattleya that he had brought. He says this is a piece of the original named plant so for sure whatever it is (sorry forgot) will bloom in the original colors. Hmmmm.....

The interesting part: So someone crosses two orchids and has a whole flask (or several flasks) of this cross and they choose one and give it a name and it is the mother plant.

Then they start Mericloning this plant. So far so good. What Curtis says is that what has happened is that people have taken the Mericloned plants and made mericlones. But that second generation doesn't come true to the original plant. His lesson learned was don't accept 2nd generation mericlones because they will be different that the original.

Have you ever heard this before?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

President: Orchid Society of Northern Nevada
Webmaster: osnnv.org
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Nov 6, 2016 4:15 AM CST
Plants SuperMod
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10a)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Region: Australia Cat Lover Bookworm Hybridizer
Orchids Lilies Irises Seed Starter Container Gardener Garden Photography
DaisyI said:The interesting part: So someone crosses two orchids and has a whole flask (or several flasks) of this cross and they choose one and give it a name and it is the mother plant.

Then they start Mericloning this plant. So far so good. What Curtis says is that what has happened is that people have taken the Mericloned plants and made mericlones. But that second generation doesn't come true to the original plant. His lesson learned was don't accept 2nd generation mericlones because they will be different that the original.

Have you ever heard this before?


Yes, that sounds right. The mother plant is one of the seedlings raised from the cross of A x B (where all seedlings from A x B have a group name - aka the grex). This particular mother plant is then often mericloned and made available. Mericloning usually introduces some mutations, although the degree depends on the age and health of the mother plant as well as the quality of the cloning process.

Cloning a clone further exacerbates this problem of genetic decay and clones of clones often won't perform as well as the original or may actually show signs of mutation. Andy Easton discusses this a bit on his website's forum (http://www.newhorizonorchids.c...).
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Last edited by Australis Nov 6, 2016 4:16 AM Icon for preview
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Nov 6, 2016 5:50 AM CST
Name: lindsey
wesley chapel, fl
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Orchids Photo Contest Winner 2021 Photo Contest Winner 2023
Interesting!
I've heard this about dog breeds...
But not plants.. makes sense though.
Would a mericlone of a mericlone be identified?
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Nov 6, 2016 5:53 AM CST
Plants SuperMod
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10a)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Region: Australia Cat Lover Bookworm Hybridizer
Orchids Lilies Irises Seed Starter Container Gardener Garden Photography
sugarcane said:Would a mericlone of a mericlone be identified?


Unfortunately, not necessarily. Here in Australia I am aware of certain suppliers offering plants when it is unlikely that they have access to either the mother plant or a division of it. Andy Easton at New Horizon Orchids would know more, as he supplies to certain orchid specialists only in Australia and yet his hybrids turn up elsewhere, too.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
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Nov 6, 2016 7:40 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Ursula
Fair Lawn NJ, zone 7a
Orchids Plumerias Cactus and Succulents Region: New Jersey Region: Pennsylvania Native Plants and Wildflowers
Greenhouse Ponds Keeper of Koi Forum moderator Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Adeniums
Yes, I am aware of this.
As even cloned Orchids age, mistakes in the DNA start to appear. One of the best examples I can think of is Phal Baldan's Kaleidoscope. The early plants yielded blooms with a very nice and distinct pattern, and as more and more cloned plants appeared in stores and shows, this pattern got blotchy! Overcloning started to include errors. I would bet that those later plants didn't live that long either.
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Nov 6, 2016 10:13 AM CST
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Thanks everyone! Curtis did say that the cloned clones carried the same name but not the same look. He could think of only one instance where the clone of a clone mutated far enough that it got its own name. I will read the Andy Easton article later (have to go teach people to pot right now).

So it sounds to me like 2nd generation clones only exist because someone wanted to obtain desirable plants in a dishonest way.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

President: Orchid Society of Northern Nevada
Webmaster: osnnv.org
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Nov 6, 2016 4:28 PM CST
Plants SuperMod
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10a)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Region: Australia Cat Lover Bookworm Hybridizer
Orchids Lilies Irises Seed Starter Container Gardener Garden Photography
If you're interested, Daisy, you can read some of Andy Easton's rants about Australian suppliers here:

http://69.195.124.90/~newhorm4...
http://69.195.124.90/~newhorm4...

This post in particular (by another forum member) is probably what you're interested in, though: http://69.195.124.90/~newhorm4...
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
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Nov 6, 2016 4:52 PM CST
Name: Jim Hawk
Odessa, Florida (Zone 9b)
Birds Master Gardener: Florida Hibiscus Greenhouse Charter ATP Member Garden Photography
Bromeliad Region: Florida Orchids Roses Tropicals Region: United States of America
Lindsey, the first new purchase on your list needs clarification. Is it (B. cucullata X C. tenebrosa) X Rl. digbyana or B. cucullata X (C. tenebrosa X Rl. digbyana)?

If it is the first, your tag should read (Bc. Sunset Surprise x Rl. digbyana)
If it is the second, your tag should read ((B. cucullata x Rlc. Helen (1902))

Jim
"Advertising may be described as the science of arresting the human intelligence long enough to get money from it." -- Steven Leacock
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Nov 6, 2016 5:04 PM CST
Name: Elaine
Sarasota, Fl
The one constant in life is change
Amaryllis Tropicals Multi-Region Gardener Orchids Master Gardener: Florida Irises
Herbs Region: Florida Vegetable Grower Daylilies Birds Cat Lover
Blinking Confused D'Oh! Hilarious! Sighing!
Elaine

"Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm." –Winston Churchill
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Nov 6, 2016 7:26 PM CST
Name: Jim Hawk
Odessa, Florida (Zone 9b)
Birds Master Gardener: Florida Hibiscus Greenhouse Charter ATP Member Garden Photography
Bromeliad Region: Florida Orchids Roses Tropicals Region: United States of America
Lindsey, sorry I am doing this one at a time. The second one on your list should read Cattlianthe [Ctt.] Penang 'Black Caesar' AM/AOS.

The name Orqulotto is not registered nor can I get a Google hit. Still working on it. Ursula??

Jim
"Advertising may be described as the science of arresting the human intelligence long enough to get money from it." -- Steven Leacock
Last edited by hawkarica Nov 6, 2016 7:45 PM Icon for preview
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Nov 6, 2016 8:05 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Ursula
Fair Lawn NJ, zone 7a
Orchids Plumerias Cactus and Succulents Region: New Jersey Region: Pennsylvania Native Plants and Wildflowers
Greenhouse Ponds Keeper of Koi Forum moderator Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Adeniums
Jim, no Orqulotto to be found. I added vowels after the qu, still nothing. I played around with the name, I am not finding it.
Google thinks I am asking for Orchid Lotto... Smiling
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Nov 6, 2016 8:50 PM CST
Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
Bookworm Charter ATP Member Region: California Hummingbirder Orchids Plant Identifier
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
There is an Orchid lotto??!!
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Nov 6, 2016 8:52 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Ursula
Fair Lawn NJ, zone 7a
Orchids Plumerias Cactus and Succulents Region: New Jersey Region: Pennsylvania Native Plants and Wildflowers
Greenhouse Ponds Keeper of Koi Forum moderator Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Adeniums
Carol, no, there is not! Smiling
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Nov 6, 2016 8:57 PM CST
Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
Bookworm Charter ATP Member Region: California Hummingbirder Orchids Plant Identifier
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
Thank you!!! You had me wondering "what next?"
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Nov 7, 2016 9:31 AM CST
Name: Jim Hawk
Odessa, Florida (Zone 9b)
Birds Master Gardener: Florida Hibiscus Greenhouse Charter ATP Member Garden Photography
Bromeliad Region: Florida Orchids Roses Tropicals Region: United States of America
The same is happening to me, Ursula. I changed the "q" for a "c" among other things and got no where. Lindsey, can you take another look at that tag and give us some options. Better yet, post a picture of the tag.

Jim
"Advertising may be described as the science of arresting the human intelligence long enough to get money from it." -- Steven Leacock
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Nov 7, 2016 4:17 PM CST
Name: lindsey
wesley chapel, fl
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Orchids Photo Contest Winner 2021 Photo Contest Winner 2023
Thumb of 2016-11-07/sugarcane/b9b867
Thumb of 2016-11-07/sugarcane/001928

Just as soon as the dust settles!
My entire house is a disaster situation with black mold ( which will require the services of a very expensive mitigation expert) .. and until I can get All my furniture out of the garage.. my liquor cabinet is inaccessible ( poor planning on my part).. I'll take another look manyana.
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Nov 7, 2016 4:57 PM CST
Name: Elaine
Sarasota, Fl
The one constant in life is change
Amaryllis Tropicals Multi-Region Gardener Orchids Master Gardener: Florida Irises
Herbs Region: Florida Vegetable Grower Daylilies Birds Cat Lover
Yikes, Lindsey. What a mess! I think you need to treat yourself to a nice dinner c/w drink(s)?

Shame about the black mold situation. You can't just remove the moldy drywall and replace it with new, then paint with Kilz, huh? That's what we did when we bought new washer/dryer and found some moldy stuff behind the old machines.
Elaine

"Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm." –Winston Churchill
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Nov 7, 2016 5:15 PM CST
Name: Jim Hawk
Odessa, Florida (Zone 9b)
Birds Master Gardener: Florida Hibiscus Greenhouse Charter ATP Member Garden Photography
Bromeliad Region: Florida Orchids Roses Tropicals Region: United States of America
Yow! That orchid name doesn't seem so important now.

Jim
"Advertising may be described as the science of arresting the human intelligence long enough to get money from it." -- Steven Leacock
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Nov 7, 2016 5:20 PM CST
Name: lindsey
wesley chapel, fl
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Orchids Photo Contest Winner 2021 Photo Contest Winner 2023
Welllllllll... if I didn't have asthma and I were a skilled handyman, maybe. My usual handyman is so busy he couldn't do my kitchen reno and whole house flooring project so I chose to use Lowes install service. They go by the books.. which means permits and inspection.. my new garage door is large missel impact resistant! It would have been nice to have the rental agent take care of it while it was a tax write off.. so now my polycarbonate pergola roof is back on hold.😫
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Nov 7, 2016 5:24 PM CST
Name: lindsey
wesley chapel, fl
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Orchids Photo Contest Winner 2021 Photo Contest Winner 2023
If the area had been less than 10 sq. Ft the guys that did the demolition could have taken care of it.. but this is a little more than that.

Thumb of 2016-11-07/sugarcane/415d37

And for those of you in Florida.. the company that did my demolition is 90% veterans, these guys were AWESOME.. the company is called Vet-Cor

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