In our swap we had them participating until the very end. Their seeds simply never arrived to the host (not making a judgment here, just stating the fact). Having a mandatory check-in beforehand would have given an inconvenient barrier to the participants and would have done nothing to prevent this problem.

Dave, if I may... I'm not sure most people would be disagreeable to a reminder the day of, especially in light of the fact that there is sometimes confusion with regard to server time and which day a swap truly starts. Most people would like something that gives them a heads-up that the swap is, assuredly, starting that day. The check-in could be open, day, six or twelve hours before swap time starts, and could be couched, somewhat, as a reminder so that people recognize it as something helpful, not just a request to suggest they might not participate.

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh -- but would it be possible to develop a list of members who had done this sort of thing (offered seeds and then never sent them in) ? Not necessarily with the idea of "banning" them, but so the host would at least be aware of the history.

Well, obviously, it wouldn't have worked for those two people. I'm talking about the dozen or so others that signed up but didn't participate.

I would like to be able to remove those who disappear without resigning from the swap before swapping starts. I tried to do that by emailing some of the people that were new to me to make sure they did not need more information and knew how to remove themselves from the swap if they were not participating, and got no responses from most. If a mechanism had been available to me to remove the non-responsive I would have.

A few people got bogged down in the system and could not figure it out, even with the tutorial video from Dave and additional explanations because they think about swaps in the traditional sense of signing up, posting a wish list, and waiting for the host to decide their fate. I'm not convinced all of those people thoroughly read, watched, or paid attention to the details because of those assumptions. They did not remove themselves either.

People whose seeds do not arrive are another issue. If a player has a Delivery Confirmation from the P.O. showing the status of their package that was mailed timely and is close, I could hold up the return for a day or so. I won't hold up a swap on speculation, and I won't mail seeds to someone from whom I have not received their end. It's not personal and is not a judgment on the reason given when it happens.

If a participant establishes a pattern of not following through or having serial issues with their packages, swappers will naturally begin to avoid those people. New participants may not have the same frame of reference, though. I don't want to be in the swap police business, but if ever someone had an egregious swap history or was otherwise abusive and I could not remove them, I would prevail upon Dave to do it.

All in all, the swap system works beautifully. Issues around not following through or disappearing or not communicating happen in all swaps. Having consistent ways to manage it when it happens is aspirational: good discussion here.

I will add the functionality to allow a host to remove a player from the swap.

@weedwhacker, I do know that all the seed swaps here are not for only commercial seeds.

I have run a commercial only seed swap for the last 7 years on another site. It was worth asking if Dave could allow a 1 for 1 for this type of swap because it woul assure everyone only got seeds they wanted.

I've been spoiled with the ease of the swap system here. It makes it hard to want to do the commercial seed swap elsewhere! I'm sure the people that are interested in swapping and I can come up with something for next year. We have been discussing it and I think it can be done.

Lisa,

You can always invite your people from other sites to come here. We'd love to have them!

For some reason I had the impression that some of the people that joined the swap, but did not actually participate were just spectating. Meaning that they signed up so that they could see how the system works and participate in the chat, but weren't entirely comfortable jumping in just yet. Maybe some even got so far as to try adding seeds, but then decided they did't want to participate after all, and didn't realize their seeds added would "go live" on swap day.

I agree with @Danita about the check-in a week or two before the swap starts and going all the way up to the starting day/time. Maybe if you don't check-in during that time period, then your seeds are no longer visible in the swap on the starting day and you can't dib anything. It makes more sense to me to make the participants responsible for it rather than expecting the host to try and hunt them down and decide whether or not to drop them from the swap. If people sign up, add seeds, and then disappear without any notice ...I think they're not likely to come back and drop out themselves or request to be dropped. Quite possibly something came up where seed swaps are not even on their radar anymore, and they might not even be coming to the site or checking their e-mail at all. Obviously that would not help in cases where people had to leave once the swap started, or when their mailed seeds just didn't arrive in time. But, I think it would definitely help with the majority of the missing swappers and take some burden off the host, especially with a swap where the sign-up period starts so far in advance.

I would add that if someone had their listings removed because they didn't check in that they should also be notified of the action, along with instructions on how to get re-instated to the swap. Something like...

We haven't heard from you since you registered for the swap entitled xxxxxxxxxxx. We are marking you as inactive in this swap. To re-enable your participation in this swap, please (re-activation instructions)

That way, they're made aware of their status and how to get back in.

I like & agree with what Morgan said. I also in no way blamed DnD (host) for what happened. I thougjt she did an incredible job.

Good discussion,
Activation:
When you get a credit card, you can't use it until you 'activate' it. Our offerings for a swap won't won't show up unless we check the check mark and turn it green to activate it for the swap we've joined and we can all peruse and wishlist and chat pre-bidding. There could be a final 'activation' I'm ready to swap button before ones items could be available for dibbing or ones items would not appear in the active available to swap list until they checked in once active trading had begun. Also, one would have to final activate their own participation status and items before one could dib any items.

Beginners/Lurkers?Learners:
Maybe we could have a "Just Browsing" designation when signing up for a swap so we are not waiting for some activity to indicate an active or inactive swap 'member'?
I was "Just Browsing" in DND's swaps and let DND know that...should I have made a greater effort to let everyone know?

Shipping Seeds to Host:
As per a discussion on the Chat thread in poisendartfrog's swap just concluded, there seems to be a preferred way to send seeds to the host that is most likely to result in the arrival of undamaged/crushed seeds, bubble envelope. If this is so, perhaps this packaging could be the standard return method? And a "tracking number" also seems critical for determining if a package sent will arrive and when. If the 'fee'. for returning dibbed seeds is $7, then my cost to get seeds to host should be $7 also , plus the cost of a 'bubble envelope'. ????

RickM said:I would add that if someone had their listings removed because they didn't check in that they should also be notified of the action, along with instructions on how to get re-instated to the swap. Something like...

We haven't heard from you since you registered for the swap entitled xxxxxxxxxxx. We are marking you as inactive in this swap. To re-enable your participation in this swap, please (re-activation instructions)

That way, they're made aware of their status and how to get back in.

Very gracious too!

MariposaMaid said:
Beginners/Lurkers?Learners:
Maybe we could have a "Just Browsing" designation when signing up for a swap so we are not waiting for some activity to indicate an active or inactive swap 'member'?
I was "Just Browsing" in DND's swaps and let DND know that...should I have made a greater effort to let everyone know?

I feel what you did was completely appropriate and no one was upset in the least about you being in the swap to observe. I think it's a great way to get your toes wet in a swap if you're not sure. Everyone has different comfort levels and ways of delving into new endeavors. I think I've had four people participate as observers in past swaps... I'd feel terrible if that option were removed and you were unable to gain that understanding and confidence in the swap.

DnD -- I remember there was discussion during the beta swap about "observing" a swap; is that an actual option now, or just something that can be done by joining but stating that you are just monitoring the swap to see if you are interested?

Sandy, that was just people joining the swap, but not participating in it. Since it doesn't cause any harm, I was more than happy to allow it for those who were curious.



Personally, my concern is less with people who sign up but don't participate, and more with people who sign up, 'submit' seeds to the swap, but then fail to deliver on those, to the frustrations of other members. When I was first fleshing out the idea of a seed swap in my mind, I knew that something like this was possible and I wanted a means to remove people from swaps if they prove to be seriously unreliable. I'm glad it Dave has made it a possibility now.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to detect these people prior to the end of the swap because not everyone actively participates in the chat forums--some people are quiet and/or shy members--but now if someone fails to send in the seeds others have claimed dibs on, I can protect my members by not allowing those persons to participate in future swaps.

I suppose the thing to remember, though, is that we're still going to end up with some great seeds. Most people in the swaps end up with more seeds than they know what to do with. And I think anyone who participates in more than one swap will find that they have way more tickets in the end of subsequent swaps than they need. It is heartbreaking to use precious, early tickets on seeds you really want, only to have that member fail to send them. Fortunately, though, it isn't the norm and everyone still ends up with some wonderful dibs.

A check-in system may help eliminate some of the duds, but I suspect that the will always be new circumstances that crop up and cause unrest. I appreciate that swap hosts now have a little more freedom and ability to protect their members.

I appreciate the people who are willing to take on the task of hosting a swap -- even with the swapping app that Dave has given us, there is still a lot of work and responsibility (and possibly headaches) for the host.

Perhaps anyone who did not send in the listed seeds in one swap (or payment of fee?) could be required to send their swap seeds to host prior to their active enrollment in a subsequent swap to redeem their tarnished swapper image?
What happens to my bid when someone leaves a swap after bidding has begun? Is it returned to the bidder and not just 'wasted'? If this is the case
Not clear on what happens to any items bid on by the person leaving. Are they automatically put back into the system and thus made available to other interested participants? Are they enumerated as newly available in the Events thread? Does the quantity available increase by one? Or does everything connected to that person just disappear?

MariposaMaid said:
Shipping Seeds to Host:
As per a discussion on the Chat thread in poisendartfrog's swap just concluded, there seems to be a preferred way to send seeds to the host that is most likely to result in the arrival of undamaged/crushed seeds, bubble envelope. If this is so, perhaps this packaging could be the standard return method? And a "tracking number" also seems critical for determining if a package sent will arrive and when. If the 'fee'. for returning dibbed seeds is $7, then my cost to get seeds to host should be $7 also , plus the cost of a 'bubble envelope'. ????

I think any packaging that protects the seeds and keeps the package away from the rollers on the sorting machines is fine. Bubble envelopes are used the most often because they provide padding while still being light and relatively cheap. I have used small light boxes in the past also. I hang on to used boxes and envelopes that are still in good condition. That and a roll of packaging tape means I never have to buy bubble envelopes.

You most likely won't ever have to spend $7 to mail your seeds in to the host. First Class and Priority Mail packages are pretty much the same speed. The only real difference being First Class only goes up to 13 oz and you can't use the USPS "free" Priority Mail shipping supplies. Since Priority Mail has several flat-rate options using their "free" supplies, most hosts choose to go that route for return shipping. That way they don't have to weigh each package, they can use a new mailer, and they can print their own postage directly from the USPS website. They can also schedule to have the packages picked up at their house. That makes it a lot easier for them when they have to deal with dozens of packages in a short amount of time.

The participants mailing seeds to the host can almost always save money using First Class though. Going that route you do have to provide your own packaging of some sort, weigh it yourself or at the post office for the correct postage amount, and still use tracking. You can get First Class postage with tracking at a seIf-service kiosk, from a postal clerk, or at home if you have a scale and use a service like PayPal shipping (which gives you a bit of a discount). It's all just a trade off between convenience and price.

Weedwhacker said:DnD -- I remember there was discussion during the beta swap about "observing" a swap; is that an actual option now, or just something that can be done by joining but stating that you are just monitoring the swap to see if you are interested?

I may have done something verboten in that regard. I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to do a swap this year since I was so behind on everything. Then when I figured I had time to join, I wasn't sure which one I wanted to join. I noticed the different swaps each had their own numbers in the page URLs when I was in the wildflower swap the previous year. Out of curiosity I changed the number so I could get a peek at the current swaps' activities before I actually joined. Now I feel kind of skeevy by not announcing my presence. Ultimately, I just joined the one that had the later trading date with no regard to the intel gained by spying!