Xenacrockett said:
I pressed some rust leaves and also forgot to send them in.

Read somewhere that the report would cost $6. or the like;
those participating by sending in leaves should get a free copy, imo.

It would be great if you could send some this year instead, Pat Do you know where you read about a report that would cost $6, is it on a public forum somewhere that I can see it? It's news to me, I don't know what report that would be since the research isn't finished yet, and I haven't heard of a $6 charge for anything related to this ongoing study.

Very nice seedling Pat.

spunky1 said:
This is not science and not always the case, but is only my opinion.
POD PARENT
For myself Plant Habit= Scape Habit. Height, branching, bud count, strong enough to hold up the blooms, and must rebloom here. I always select seedlings on rebloom. I could care less about the width of leaves, length of leaves, dormant, evergreen, semi-evergreen, whether it has fibrous roots or tuberous roots as long as grows and preforms well everywhere. Of course I want a selected seedling to increase and I can tell after the second year if the increase is enough to keep it a third year.
POLLEN PARENT
When I look at a pollen parent I am looking at the bloom color, form and size. The color or pattern is the first thing that gets my attention. I could care less about the width of leaves, length of leaves, dormant, evergreen, semi-evergreen, whether it has fibrous roots or tuberous roots, I am only looking at the bloom because I have a pod parent that has all the other desired assets. I will make at least two of the same cross to ensure I get some seed from that cross, maby 5% I will make more than two cross's.
DESIRED RESULTS.
I really admire people that have all this scientific knowledge and hope it helps them in what there trying to achieve in the daylily world. I have been doing this for a long time and when you get down to the nitty gritty you never know what you will cross with what until you walk out the door each morning and see what's blooming. For myself I agree with Papa John "this is not rocket science its pizza and I love pizza." Again just my opinion.

You are lucky Fred that you get rebloom where you are. I cannot judge my seedlings on rebloom here because we hardly ever get it. I have to judge them on just about everything else, appearance, bud count, scape strength, fertility. I am really not a big enough or profitable enough garden to send my seedlings south to have someone evaluate them for me, but I have found out from some southerners who have purchased my plants that they have gotten rebloom from them in the south. That was great to know.

Oh boy, oh boy I got to deadhead this morning 4 blooms!!

I recall going to look at a bull with my grandfather when I was in my early teens, we walked up to the pen and grandpa immediately said "good looking young bull, he will do". The man selling the bull, who was young, I would guess mid-late 20's, obviously took my grandpa's statement "he will do" as almost an insult and begin to list all the "stats" (birth weight for grand sire, sire, finish weight, etc.). My grandfather waited and listened and when he was finished just said "yep, he will do". Bull threw light weight calves for the first time heifers that gained well and graded well at time of sale. They both were right and the end result was the same, one relied on experience and sight to see what was there, the other, pedigree and stats to tell them. I have my own opinion on which one has more value, but it is only one mans opinion and not meant to down grade those who choose to look rather than to see. More than one way to skin a cat, though to be clear, I have not tried any.

Gale

Cindy I have always (before and after my military service) lived within 20 miles of where I live right now and would live no where else. All of our friends are folks that have moved here from the north or stay here every winter in there RV or second home. This area just happens to be a good place to grow daylilies.

Well said Gale.

sooby said:
Do you know where you read about a report that would cost $6, is it on a public forum somewhere that I can see it? It's news to me, I don't know what report that would be since the research isn't finished yet, and I haven't heard of a $6 charge for anything related to this ongoing study.

I asked, and apparently this is the first the researchers have heard of this too!

I know they do stuff like that all the time here at the University of FL. You can watch stuff for them...send them in stuff...let them do stuff to you. I know the state does something on their own, my SIL inspects Nicole Harrys garden and my BIL inspects Pete Harrys, apparently they and the other inspectors bring stuff in to be tested and studied as well. They too work with the university system.

I know they do stuff like that all the time here at the University of FL. You can watch stuff for them...send them in stuff...let them do stuff to you. I know the state does something on their own, my SIL inspects Nicole Harrys garden and my BIL inspects Pete Harrys, apparently they and the other inspectors bring stuff in to be tested and studied as well. They too work with the university system.

Im curious what researchers you asked about it, that had not heard of rust studies. Altho, it seems a total waste to research rust in climates where it dies back in the winter anyway. Im sure you all have your share of problem things as well. So goes life.

gardenglory said:

Im curious what researchers you asked about it, that had not heard of rust studies. Altho, it seems a total waste to research rust in climates where it dies back in the winter anyway. Im sure you all have your share of problem things as well. So goes life.

It's for a study by the University of Georgia, for which they need daylily rust samples from many different places. There's no $6 charge for a report. If you go back in the thread, this originated from Becky asking if they are requesting samples again this year, and the answer is yes. Pat mentioned having heard of a report for which there was a $6 fee and the answer to that is no there isn't I'm just the go-between.

Yep...GA. now there is a state that has something to research

I sprayed daylilies with some soap that is supose to help rust, honestly, I dont know how it works, but I have never, and I mean never, had such a sudden and huge outbreak, as I have on the plants I sprayed. Luckily it just seems to be on those fans tho, not spreading.

sooby said:

I asked, and apparently this is the first the researchers have heard of this too!

Even at my advanced age, I tend to remember stuff accurately; however, I don't recall the website where I read this last year.
It was more like a research type website--not sure which one.
I didn't make it up. Sorry, don't have time to look it up.

Right now it looks like rust is pretty much beat back with warmer temps.
I've also been using that Green Magic stuff.
Next January, I'm cutting everything down before spraying also.

But I do have some famous rusters in a row out there, so if rust is here, they'll show it.
And then I'll send it in.

gardenglory said:Yep...GA. now there is a state that has something to research

I sprayed daylilies with some soap that is supose to help rust, honestly, I dont know how it works, but I have never, and I mean never, had such a sudden and huge outbreak, as I have on the plants I sprayed. Luckily it just seems to be on those fans tho, not spreading.

I've used the 3/1 organic soap and that did seem to kill rust, but it is necessary to check almost daily.
But it is a joke to growers using the fungicides you have to suit up to apply.
Some plants catch every rust spore that flies by and run with it.

Heavy nitrogen makes plant leaves more rust prone; raising the potash level a bit can help deflect rust.
Soil minerals in rock dusts and seaweed make plants stronger.
Having rust tolerant plants from the get-go helps too.

When temperature increases past the rust ideal zone, rust takes a break.
Rust likes cool and wet, but not freezing or hot.

I like the colors on this seedling that had its 1st bloom yesterday,
but not the form.

Well, I dont get to whipped up over rust, but I dont like it either. I was hoping the soap might work. Im gunna keep trying with it, just adjusting the amounts. I usually have good luck with just some systemic stuff, but something didnt work this go around. Suiting up would be my last choice as well.

Xenacrockett said:

Even at my advanced age, I tend to remember stuff accurately; however, I don't recall the website where I read this last year.
It was more like a research type website--not sure which one.
I didn't make it up. Sorry, don't have time to look it up.

But I do have some famous rusters in a row out there, so if rust is here, they'll show it.
And then I'll send it in.

Thanks, Pat. There are research journal websites that charge varying amounts depending on how you want to obtain a particular report/article and I think I've seen some that maybe charge about $6 a day or per view. But I don't really follow how that relates to this particular study which isn't even completed yet. Could you have been thinking to obtain their previously published article on daylily rust races instead? That article is indeed $6 to rent if you get it from the journal website here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com... . That's a different study from the current one.

That's great if you are able to send some in.

This post is going to be a bit long and then I will start a new thread for pod and pollen parents. I am not attempting to change anyone's opinion. I use as a basic starting point that when someone makes observations in their growing conditions that their observations are correct. However, the biological causes or reasons behind those observations may not be the ones assumed.

GDJCB said: They both were right and the end result was the same, one relied on experience and sight to see what was there, the other, pedigree and stats to tell them.

In my opinion, people with long and deep experience can look at something and see what is there; those without such experience need to objectively measure what they see to have the same amount of information with a similar level of confidence. There are, however, some possible catch-22s in breeding - in effect, sometimes what one sees is not what one gets.

One possible example of the complications of hybridizing.

A hybridizer has a certain set of goals and has found five plants that fulfill the requirements. One of those requirements is that the plant has at least 25 buds per scape. All five plants have 25 buds per scape and all equally fulfill the other requirements. The hybridizer can only afford to purchase one of the plants. If the hybridizer relies only on the visible characteristics of the plants then the choice of which plant to use as a parent is effectively random. The hybridizer can only use the visible characteristics (the phenotypes) to estimate the breeding values (how well the plants are at passing on their characteristics to their seedlings) of the five plants. However, if the pedigrees of the plants are available and if information is available about the characteristics of the parents then the hybridizer may have more information to help make the choice.

Pod Parent A (32 buds) X Pollen Parent B (18 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 1 (25 buds)
Pod Parent C (25 buds) X Pollen Parent D (25 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 2 (25 buds)
Pod Parent E (10 buds) X Pollen Parent F (40 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 3 (25 buds)
Pod Parent G (35 buds) X Pollen Parent F (30 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 4 (25 buds)
Pod Parent H (15 buds) X Pollen Parent J (20 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 5 (25 buds)

With the added information about the characteristics of the parents, when the pedigrees are available and their stats are available there is more information that can be used to help make a decision.
Breeding Plant 1 has the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (32 +18)/2 = 25 buds.

Breeding Plant 2 has the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (25 +25)/2 = 25 buds. We would expect that the seedlings produced by this plant would be less varied in bud count than those produced by plant 1.

Breeding Plant 3 has the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (10 +40)/2 = 25 buds. We would expect that the seedlings produced by this plant would be more varied in bud count than those produced by plant 1.

Breeding Plant 4 has less than the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (35 +30)/2 = 32.5 versus 25 buds.

Breeding Plant 5 has more than the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (15 +20)/2 =17.5 versus 25 buds.

When we use a plant's visible characteristics (its phenotype) as the basis for choosing whether it will be used as a parent we are relying on the strength of the relationship between a plant's genotype and its visible characteristics. But those relationships (called heritability) can vary from zero to one. When it is zero the visible characteristics cannot tell us anything about its genotype. When it is one then the physical characteristics are a perfect measure of its genotype.

Returning to the example above. A plant with 25 buds may have a genotype for 25 buds, for more than 25 buds or for less than 25 buds. We cannot know what its genotype is for certain until we have made crosses and seen what bud counts its seedlings have (on average). That is called a progeny test. Nowadays, because of the possibility of using artificial insemination, progeny testing is done extensively in the beef and dairy cattle industry.

Many daylily hybridizers use progeny testing, even though they may not identify it as a method they use. When they choose a plant to use as a parent they often cross it with many other daylilies. If it does not produce at least a few seedlings of sufficient quality it is may not be used again as a parent - that is effectively progeny testing to choose 'good' parents.

Pat - I like the colors of your seedling bloom, too! Do you know the parents of this cross? What is the size of the bloom and the height of the scape?

Maurice - I agree that progeny testing is a means that I would (and am using). But being new at hybridizing .... it is still in the trial stages for me. How many generations of seedlings would you need to do to determine a particular characteristic of a parent plant? Or do you just use one parent for many crosses with many cultivars to see what traits carry over to the next generation?

beckygardener said:How many generations of seedlings would you need to do to determine a particular characteristic of a parent plant? Or do you just use one parent for many crosses with many cultivars to see what traits carry over to the next generation?

There are several possible ways to do progeny testing and which way you might choose may depend on your space, time, other resources and your hybridizing goals.

You could do your progeny testing over several generations. In this case you might make only a few crosses each year with each potential long-term parent. You would presumably intend to use good parents for many years.

OR

You might do your progeny testing in one generation by making many crosses with each potential parent. You might then choose the best of the seedlings from within the progeny tests of the parents that you have identified as having good breeding values. You might repeat some of those crosses if the progeny characteristics of the seedlings from the test crosses suggested that you could produce the desired result with more seedlings of the same cross.

When looking at the results of progeny tests one may find that some plants have good breeding values in crosses with many other plants while other parents may have good breeding values when crossed with some specific other plants but not when crossed with others. The terms used would be general combining ability and specific combining ability. You might then adjust how you use plants which fit well with only certain other plants versus those that fit well with many (or most) other plants.