GigiPlumeria said:I thought I got hacked I kept trying to go back to ATP. .

Me, too!!!

I've been away for a few months so I was afraid another favorite garden site had been taken away from me!

I'm still confused as to the who what when where how info, but as long as Dave and Trish and my old gardening pals are here, I'm fine.

The daily banner was one of my favorite things about this site. It's effectively wrecked...and even moreso on the phone.

Do NOT like the new masthead. I realize branding is important, but I think you're giving up too much to get it. Lotta other ways to achieve the same end without sacrificing a site-defining element.

Whether it was the intent or not, that single change says (straight up - to me at least), "we're much less interested in the crowd-sourcing that got us here than we are the corporatization of the direction."

Little things matter.

One of the first rules of just about anything is, "if it's free, you're the product - not the customer". Crowd-sourced things seem to occasionally be the exception to that. Decrementing even the sense of that leaves me skeptical. Am I wrong in feeling the pendulum moving toward the product-ization of ATP, its members, and the stuff that they've freely contributed (under a set of expectations that's perhaps different now...or will be more mercenary soon)?

dave said:I'll be changing the banner soon. It is very big, primarily because I wanted original visitors to Garden.org to see the name that is familiar to them.

Keep in mind here that there are 3 times more people who go to NGA's site prior to this merge, then there were ATP members. They are also having to adjust to a completely different site than what they were used to. Seeing "National Gardening Association" in a huge font on the top of the page provides some comfort and continuity to them.

Eventually I think we'll remove that and just have the circle logo and maybe a smaller "Garden.org". But I want to leave it as it is for a few days at least.

Whether it was the intent or not, that single change says (straight up - to me at least), "we're much less interested in the crowd-sourcing that got us here than we are the corporatization of the direction."

Little things matter.

One of the first rules of just about anything is, "if it's free, you're the product - not the customer". Crowd-sourced things seem to occasionally be the exception to that. Decrementing even the sense of that leaves me skeptical. Am I wrong in feeling the pendulum moving toward the product-ization of ATP, its members, and the stuff that they've freely contributed (under a set of expectations that's perhaps different now...or will be more mercenary soon)?


Really? Really? That is all I can say, I guess as a "product"...someone is actually thinking about us.
I can't believe people who come to this site for free, and benefit so much from it are so fast to jump ship. I just can't imagine the hurt such a post would cause someone who has spent so much time and trouble trying to make this a great garding site, and as far as I can see is only going to make it better.

Thank you, Larry.

I agree with Larry (and, in case this was unclear to anyone, the first several paragraphs in Larry's post are a quote from the one above his) -- I hope everyone will check out some of the nifty new features that are available to us now... the "learning garden," "how-to projects," etc.; we already had a wealth of information here, and now we have even more -- how can that be a bad thing? ATP didn't spring up fully grown in one day... and it's going to take a while to get all the features of the two sites blended together. This is a huge undertaking, and I have to think the majority of ATP'ers have a great appreciation for all the work the Whittingers put into it, and that the members from NGA will be quite amazed at how things work around here -- where we can offer suggestions and requests for changes and someone actually listens and often implements those requests, or at least explains why not.

I have been impressed at how smoothly this whole process has gone (everybody - remember DG and any changes there - trauma, drama, etc.). Here a major change has been implemented with plenty of warning ahead of time, smooth transition, and only a few glitches quickly addressed and remedied or plans to do so enumerated. I hope the banner will be improved with more emphasis on the flowers/plants portrayed and less on a logo, but that can be tweaked as time goes on. I personally do not like any change to anything (the devil I know is better than a new devil), but my life (rather long in fact) has been one change after the other with me kicking and screaming all the way and then ending up liking (mostly) the new situation. At least this change has been pain free and lots of good stuff thrown in to sweeten the pot. Thanks again to all who welcomed me here and I look forward to adapting to the changes and expect to end up liking them and saying "what took you so long" to think up this stuff!

Seedfork said:Really? Really? That is all I can say, I guess as a "product"...someone is actually thinking about us.
I can't believe people who come to this site for free, and benefit so much from it are so fast to jump ship. I just can't imagine the hurt such a post would cause someone who has spent so much time and trouble trying to make this a great garding site, and as far as I can see is only going to make it better.

I wholeheartedly agree! The Whitingers have worked diligently for this wonderful site and all of it's members, allowing each and every one of us to learn and share our knowledge about gardening. This is the place to find the most comprehensive plant and gardening information possible. I know that this site will continue to grow for the betterment of gardeners everywhere; it is the best informational gardening site on the internet and with the Whitinger family at the helm, steering it in the right direction it will continue to grow and evolve and be an inspiration to many!

Seedfork said:
Really? Really? That is all I can say, I guess as a "product"...someone is actually thinking about us.
I can't believe people who come to this site for free, and benefit so much from it are so fast to jump ship. I just can't imagine the hurt such a post would cause someone who has spent so much time and trouble trying to make this a great garding site, and as far as I can see is only going to make it better.

I think you missed the point of my post. It really wasn't about the banner at all. It was about what the banner might portend.

I've been on the "internet" since before it was the internet (bbs days). And the pattern of building a community and then monetizing the community is older than even that. It's almost a "law of physics" of the internet. It's what happens. And the steps to it are both real and recognizable (if you've seen it before). Think of me as the canary in the coal mine, maybe.

And I realize that this site and what it provides is a HUGE investment for Dave and Trish...both timewise, moneywise, and heart-and-soul-wise. And don't think me ungrateful for that. I actually get it. And I know that they need to recoup that investment in more than just hugs. Those don't put food on the table.

The flipside of this is that we, the community, have also invested in this. The thousands of thousands of pics, articles, independent research, etc., that have been freely given under the banner of crowdsourcing really do have value. And really could be leveraged/monetized in a variety of ways.

I don't know that it's wrong to point that out and wonder. Crowd-sourcing is a two way street. With implicit understandings that go both ways. One of those understandings is that those providing the content can speak up about direction and disposition of the crowd-sourced stuff. And it's not a bad conversation to have out loud (at least in my opinion).

I'd be thrilled if what I see as the beginning of a pattern that I've seen multiple times isn't playing out here. I love this place. And it's provided value to us that we haven't returned in a way that does put food on the table. And I completely get that. And I also get that none of this is up to me.

I'm not "jumping ship". And I have high hopes for the changes and the broader scope/audience. I'm not sure if I'm seeing the beginnings of a hard push to move the participants (and their contributions) from consumers to products. But it's something that has happened, happens, and will happen again and again on the internet. And if you read hurt in my intent, Larry, you really missed the point. It's really a pretty reasonable conversation to be had because it affects us all. Knowing the size and shape and intentions and directions of a place that we all sink so much time into is important. It's a bi-directional thing and it's about making informed choices on both sides.

Dave and Trish, I'm sure, are aware that the changes they make will affect the community in a variety of ways. And they weigh the pros and cons of these changes. And to do it in a vacuum, without input from the crowd, isn't a good play. And part of why they're not nuking lively discussions across the board. They've got a vision of what this place should be and what it should look like and what they want to get out of it (in currencies ranging from hugs to making a living). And they weigh all of those things carefully, I'm sure. And ultimately it's up to them. I really hope I haven't caused hurt by this post. This might not be, arguably, the best venue for it. But it's legitimate stuff to talk about and think about from all corners.

I can see from the responses generated while I was typing this up that my thrust is either misunderstood or just outright wrong. I'm okay with that. But nothing I've communicated or am thinking about along these lines is without broad precedent. And if I've offended any of you posting, I apologize. This place is important to me. If it weren't, I wouldn't be out on the thin branches saying what I am. And spinning out possibilities like I have.

--

Sidenote: direct, community funding and value-for-value and the notion of "volunteerism" really seem to be taking off. Dunno if you've ever considered it, but I know we'd respond well and generously to a straight-up appeal that went something like this: We work our tails off to provide the neat thing that is ATP (garden.org). And we need to be able to make at least part of our living at it. We don't want to make this a subscription-based site and we don't want to leverage our contributers as products. Could you please return some monetary value in exchange for the entertainment, community, and information that we provide?

Your site. Your rules. Your direction. Your vision. I understand that.

Dave
at first i did not like the change
Now i think it is Awesome
but when you get this old (74) it takes some time to remember

Dick

Change is not often easy, but with out it we would have no butterflies

Thank you Dave , Trish and the whole family, for making my favorite fantastic gardening sight even better
looking forward to seeing it evolve even more.

Cinda

And I appreciate the frank but cordial discussions about those changes.

dave said:...there are 3 times more people who go to NGA's site prior to this merge...

Hmmm, silly question:
How do these numbers affect the Not A Raffle Raffle? Will the NARR continue and will they be open to all of us?

I am relatively new here and am surprised to see the change ( i was not aware this was in the works) and I am afraid I am watching with a jaded eye. I hopped over to ATP after over 10 years on Gardenweb . I was there when the original owner Spike sold the site to Ivillage .....it was never the same ......and not in a good way. Now of course it has been sold out to Houzz and is in my humble opinion even worse.

So I mutinied over to ATP after being a dedicated Gardenwebber for so many years. I am just starting to get comfortable here and am so far enjoying the site and so I dont have a lot of experience with the "old" ATP. I was hoping to find an excellent gardening site like Gardenweb used to be and ATP was recommended to me . I am looking for a gardening site that is an easy to use and friendly one . It maybe this one or it may not be .Time will tell. However , if I am to be truthful, I won't commit to adding things like pictures to the site until I see proof that what I add to the site is not commercialized . A site not inundated with advertising and a site that does not look like or act like Facebook . The moment it does , I will be gone .
I wish the owners of the site the best of luck in their new merger but am cautious in my observations that it will be better than what they have already worked so hard to make good now.

Trish said:We are not prepared to be able to educate and encourage world-wide. That's simply not feasible.

I was under the impression it was the contributors to this site who did the educating and encouraging

It's not about inclusion/exclusion. It is about practicality.

Then why does it feel like exculsion?

One organization simply cannot be familiar with world-wide growing conditions/pests/diseases. Very different from dealing with other world-wide organizations who aren't working to help people grow things

Why? And why is it necessary to be so specific about where a plant is or isn't growing? People can find out what they want by asking on forums, or by simply trying to grow plants. I've tried many plants which survived for so long until the climate didn't agree with me, at least I tried and enjoyed them for so long. I wouldn't have known what is possible if I hadn't tried, I doubt many people dive head first into growing a tropical plant in say Alaska.

That said, our community is certainly worldwide- it always has been, and there's no reason why it won't continue to be so.

If it doesn't feel worldwide, and as you state it is to encourage gardening in the US (which is a different mission to the original and only part of it), then I'm afraid you just might miss out on the richness of the rest of the world. If you have 3 times as many people coming here, I assume there will be plenty of people who are able to ID plants, bugs and insects.

Question for Admin: When I go to Plant Care Guides, I am seeing the NGA stuff on the left, with an ad right beside it and then a large white space on the right. Ads on the bottom. Is this going to change and get smoothed out to look better? Or am I the only one seeing this layout?

@stillwood The new NGA content came straight over without changes, that means all the ads and whitespace and stuff are still there.

Yes, it will get changed and smoothed out over time. I have a lot of work to fold all that into the site to make it integrated and proper.

OK - thanks. All good things come in time.

I found the Plant Care section last night when browsing and I really like it!

Trish said:The charter of the NGA, and the mission that we are dedicated to continuing, is to educate and encourage gardening in the US.
There is a vast difference in the gardening challenges right here in the US- it is difficult enough to run a website, operate a podcast, and run a database for *US* specific information- vastly different from coast to coast. We are not prepared to be able to educate and encourage world-wide. That's simply not feasible.

It's not about inclusion/exclusion. It is about practicality. One organization simply cannot be familiar with world-wide growing conditions/pests/diseases. Very different from dealing with other world-wide organizations who aren't working to help people grow things

That said, our community is certainly worldwide- it always has been, and there's no reason why it won't continue to be so.

This message is a big contradiction!
That hurts deeply!
It feels like loosing my plant lovers home, my gardeners family I was with even since DG.
„Welcome“ maybe as a visitor or a guest, but not truly part of the family, an outstander.

With All Things Plants. I felt home with my fellow gardener‘s family.

Enthusiastically I joint when Dave announced All Things Plants, a non-profit organisation with an international appeal. As soon as the database was created, a strong motivation rose in me and I set myself a goal to work hard to help it building up with my photos. For all these years, there hasn’t passed a day where I didn’t think of „our“ database, a plant or plant part, in my garden, in a botanical garden or wherever I went, that would be an addition to "our" database. On my trips to Brazil, ATP was in my mind, what a wealth in plants that would enrich „our“ database!
Countless hours I have spend photographing, editing, identifying for a gardeners family I cannot call mine any longer.
This is what Dave said announcing All Things Plants on July 11, 2011.:

It is with tremendous excitement that today we introduce All Things Plants, a website dedicated exclusively to the needs of gardeners around the country and the world.[:quote]
and:
[quote]Welcome to your new gardening home on the web. It will be my distinct pleasure to continue to have the privilege of serving all of the people in the gardening world.

http://garden.org/ideas/view/d...

How can anyone say that this isn't a fundamental change?
With National Garden Association (read for US-gardeners), the spirit of All Things Plants has died for me..

Thanks to all who have shown empathy with the feelings of non-US gardeners.

Nothing has changed. Trish said "our community is certainly worldwide- it always has been, and there's no reason why it won't continue to be so."
All the original ATP elements are still there. I just don't get the hang up with one word! Sorry, I have always been a glass half full person. Personally, it's very hard for me to relate to glass half empty people. I'd rather be gardening than letting negative stuff invade my life and gardening joy. I get enough of that from other elements in the world, in life.
If you no longer have fun here, find joy in sharing photos, garden related tips, experiences, because of 1 (one) word, then, well, I feel sorry for anyone that feels that way, I really really do.

Going to go dig in the dirt, plant something, set a gopher trap, etc. It's always worked for me to clear any negative and sad feelings.