@RoseBlush1
Lyn, I read your post this morning before going to the office. To tell you the truth, in between doing quotes for the machines we sell (rather technical), your comments kept popping into my head! Least to say, I was a little distracted

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail! I really appreciate you willingness to share. It is feedback like this which makes this forum so special and shows how our little community can learn from each others experiences.

You make a valid point about introducing FB into my 'little' breeding program but I must say that I also like FB for itself. My hesitation in acquiring it so far has only been it's size, otherwise it is by all accounts a good rose to have in the garden.

What you say about the Hot Chocolate issue - Simpson vs Carruth - makes sense! I have also notice the slightly cupped shape of the bloom which is most evident in my first pic but lack the experience to know the relevance. I also just went out and had a look at the stems on my rose - it is 'armed with prickles and thorns'!
Based on your assumption, my feelings and the fact that the vendor now lists his 'Hot Chocolate' at Carruth and no longer Simpson I have swapped the roses in my list.

RoseBlush1 said: I hope I have answered your questions ...

Yes you most definitely did

@sunnyvalley, Sharlene,

sunnyvalley said:Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail!

You are more than welcome. All I did was show you how to view a lineage tree in a different fashion. This is very much how those discussions about breeding roses went at Ralph's nursery. Knowing the classes of roses, not just the names of the roses, that are a part of the lineage tree tells the breeder a lot about the rose under discussion. It also enables him to select seed and pollen parents with a more predictable outcome. Of course, there is never any guarantee about the outcome as Nature stirs the genes in the cross.

However, knowing the classes in the lineage, gives the breeder some idea of what plant characteristics may be carried forward like plant architecture, foliage and more.

I know this is not for everyone, but when you know the lineage trees and know the classes in the tree, you really do see the rose differently.

You make a valid point about introducing FB into my 'little' breeding program but I must say that I also like FB for itself. My hesitation in acquiring it so far has only been it's size, otherwise it is by all accounts a good rose to have in the garden.

Actually, there is no need for you to grow FP in your garden for breeding purposes. Last night I did a statistical sampling of the descendants of FP and found that in 100% of them one or more of Moore's striped roses are included in the lineage.
Those striped roses came from his initial cross of Little Darling x Ferdinand Pichard.

Here's an excerpt from his article on striped roses:

"Where did the new modern striped roses come from? Some years ago, as an aside from our usual line of crosses, we used some pollen from a striped hybrid perpetual of unknown ancestry. From this cross (Little Darling x Ferdinand Pichard) came 29 seedlings -- all climbers of semi-climbers except two. Of these 29 plants, nine showed some degree of striping -- red and white or pink and white. Some had only a few stripes; others were well-striped. Most plants were only moderately vigorous. Some gave spring bloom only. Foliage was fair to sparse with a tendency to mildew. Of the lot, two were finally saved to continue breeding. One was a bush with 3 to 3.5 inch semi-double, very fragrant flowers that were well-striped. This bush, not overly vigorous, we identified as No. 26 stripe."

As I mentioned, as a breeder, he worked to build health into the breeding line. Here is a link to the rest of the article:

http://paulbardenroses.com/moo...

You can take any one of the roses that he finally released and include it in your breeding program and carry the striping trait forward with a smaller plant.

For example 'Pinstripe' is a miniature rose that grows to about 2' in my garden. It has been deer chomped twice, has no disease problems, handles intense heat and has been buried in snow and always comes back vigorous and healthy. It has 67 descendants.



'Stars 'n' Stripes', another miniature has 224 decendants



Many of the 371 roses listed as descendants of 'Ferdinand Pichard' were bred by other breeders than Ralph Moore. This is a perfect example of another one of his pithy sayings, "All breeders stand on the shoulders of the breeders who have gone before him."

What you say about the Hot Chocolate issue - Simpson vs Carruth - makes sense! I have also notice the slightly cupped shape of the bloom which is most evident in my first pic but lack the experience to know the relevance. I also just went out and had a look at the stems on my rose - it is 'armed with prickles and thorns'!
Based on your assumption, my feelings and the fact that the vendor now lists his 'Hot Chocolate' at Carruth and no longer Simpson I have swapped the roses in my list.

Yes you most definitely did

Thank you for the acorn. I had fun with this.

This is Stupid Toy Day. The Rose of the Day is Hula Hoop, one of Ralph Moore's little floribundas. It's very hard to find these days, but it's worth the hunt.

It's absolutely lovely - not least with the little Forget-Me-Not peeking through the petals. Most charming!

Zuzu what a coincidence that you chose this rose!!

@RoseBlush1 - Lyn what have we been talking about??? Hula Hoop is one of those 371 roses you mentioned. Mr Moore's legacy is ever present!!!!



Lyn, I don't often come across Ralph Moore roses here but do have a couple which are descendant from his original Little Darling x Ferdinand Pichard cross. Purple Tiger is one which has already been used quite often. My two are not doing that great but if they pick up next season, I will be sure to save some pollen. The other that I have is McGredy's Pagageno - no descendants listed but might also be worth a go.
PS - glad you had fun

zuzu said:Here's an entry for Tipu Sultan, Khalid. It's a beautiful rose.

Rose (Rosa 'Tipu Sultan')[/quote]

Thanks a lot zuzu

@sunnyvalley, Sharlene ...............

I agree with Zuzu ... 'Hula Hoop' is a good garden rose.

Ralph only had five miniature roses to work with when he started breeding miniature roses. He introduced over 700. HMF lists about 500.

I'll write you a t-mail tonight about other roses with stripes that have his roses in their lineage that are available in Europe. The sun is out for the first time in over a week. I need to be out, too !

This is National Maple Syrup Day. The Rose of the Day is Sweetness, a nice mauve grandiflora.

A lovely rose. The database says she is very fragrant. In my very limited experience, the mauve roses are often more fragrant than average. Is there some common ancestor responsible for it?

This is Arabic Language Day. The Rose of the Day is Rosa arabica.

It is nice to start the day by being introduced to a new (to me, at least) and lovely rose.

Pork pal, Sweetness is heavily perfumed. I wish I still grew that rose. For me, the mauve roses are more cold tender AND I think, better perfumed.
Temperature here this morning was a record-breaking -10°. I wonder how many zone 7 plants I will lose? I mulched the roses, just enough to protect roots.
@Sunnyvalley I had a thought about the confusingly similar photos we have for Hot Cocoa and Hot Chocolate. Most people use both names interchangeably for the drink, so maybe they do the same for the rose? I have a peony named 'Hot Chocolate' (hybridized by a friend!), and I've seen it mistakenly offered in catalogs as 'Hot Cocoa'.

I also appreciate the scent of most mauve roses. It's relatively mild and never cloying. Another point in their favor is their ability to tolerate a little more shade than most roses. I plant them in the problem spots in my garden, in the shade of trees and structures.

This is Holly Day. I'm not wild about Holly because it's a hazard in the garden. I dug up all of my hollies years ago because the leaves are like serrated razor blades, especially during clean-up time when they're dry and are hidden in the grass, and the berries make the birds drunk enough to dive bomb my cats.

I choose, therefore, to celebrate Holly Golightly, the heroine of "Breakfast at Tiffany's," on this day, so Tiffany is the Rose of the Day.

I'm with you on the hazards of holly in the garden. I only have one bush left and it is out front in a bed where I don't have to go near it - except when I need twigs with red berries for Christmas decorations and I hurt myself _every_ time!

Never had drunk birds dive bomb anything, but poor kitties!!

...and 'Tiffany' is a lovely rose!

Another beautiful rose with an interesting and convoluted connection.

Tiffany was a popular marketed cut flower as well as garden plant for a long time, but seems to have been phased out of production as a cut flower. There is another hybrid tea called Tiffany that is readily available as a cut flower these days; it is a lovely soft peach with subtle pink blushing.

The old 'Tiffany' is often called a pernetiana because it has nine doses of pernetiana within the first three generations of its lineage.

Joseph Pernet-Ducher is sometimes blamed for introducing black spot into the gene pool of roses in his quest to breed the first yellow hybrid tea rose. Using 'rosa foetida' seedling, he obtained 'Rayon d'Or' in 1910 he developed 'Soleil d'Or'

The pernetianas also brought the salmon, orange and apricot colors into the rose gene pool.

However, as far back as 1927, they were recommending that pernetianas be grown as budded roses.

For me, 'Tiffinany' is one of the strongest roses in my garden.

Just some fun trivia.

RoseBlush1 said:The old 'Tiffany' is often called a pernetiana because it has nine doses of pernetiana within the first three generations of its lineage.

Joseph Pernet-Ducher is sometimes blamed for introducing black spot into the gene pool of roses in his quest to breed the first yellow hybrid tea rose. Using 'rosa foetida' seedling, he obtained 'Rayon d'Or' in 1910 he developed 'Soleil d'Or'

The pernetianas also brought the salmon, orange and apricot colors into the rose gene pool.

However, as far back as 1927, they were recommending that pernetianas be grown as budded roses.

For me, 'Tiffinany' is one of the strongest roses in my garden.

Just some fun trivia.

I am so impressed with your knowledge of rose genetics and breeding lineages, Lyn. Is this kind of information available in a book? If not, perhaps you should write one if you have not already done so.

I am relatively new to rose gardening, other than Pink Double Knockout, and I am particularly interested in learning about disease-resistant yellow roses with a sweet or citrus fragrance (i.e., not licorice). Your wealth of knowledge about lineages would be wonderful to have in book form!

Carol ...

My rose education was very different than most people who learn to grow roses. As I said in my post to Sharlene when we first started posting about striped roses, my primary rose mentor was Kim Rupert. Before Kim would take me on, he required that I buy 9 rose books ... not the picture books ... and learn about roses in depth. Kim and the other breeders I met through him had the lineages of roses memorized !

I had to study those books just so that I could understand what they were talking about. It was all over my head. I also had to make my own lineage trees and study what characteristics various roses brought into the rose gene pool. Whew !

I had to know rose history, the various breeders and their roses and the botany of roses just to understand how modern roses were developed over time. Of course, I had to understand breeding techniques, propagation, and all of the variables that could impact roses.

However, understanding all of that just enabled me to understand roses in a different way. It did not teach me how to grow good roses. You learn how to grow roses by growing them.

There are people participating on this forum that have grown roses successfully for decades and have as much to share from a different perspective that is just as valuable, especially to someone who is new at growing roses.

There are a lot of right ways to grow roses and so much can be learned from those who have hands on experience.

I share lineage information for fun on this forum and often share what I know about how the botany of the plants impact how one may want to make changes in how they are growing their roses, but each of us has to make adaptations to help our roses grow well in our climates and in our soil.

I think growing roses is an adventure because no one knows it all and no matter how much you know, there is more to learn. Another of Ralph Moore's pithy sayings, which I have found to be very true for me was, "As soon as you think you know everything about roses, along comes a rose to prove you wrong."

Good luck and enjoy your roses.